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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional? (Read 6149 times)
SkyChief
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Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Jan 29th, 2017 at 5:00pm
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NY Senator Chuck Schumer says yes. And so does Vice President Mike Pence!  “Calls to ban Muslims from entering the US are offensive and unconstitutional.” said Pence.

Mitch McConnell, Dick Cheney, John McCain and other UniParty warhawks have strongly criticized the President for the temporary Travel Ban.

Efforts to overturn the Travel Ban are underway.  A Federal Judge (Ann M. Donnelly) has already issued a cease-and-desist decree, but it won't be observed.

"Saturday's ruling does not undercut the President's executive order. All stopped visas will remain stopped. All halted admissions will remain halted. All restricted travel will remain prohibited. The executive order is a vital action toward strengthening America's borders, and therefore sovereignty. The order remains in place,"  a White House spokesperson said.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #1 - Jan 29th, 2017 at 6:08pm
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Yes, it is unconstitutional, and it is wrong on every level.

Most people will overlook this because it benefits them by reducing the chances they will be blown up. Most people will be happy because a lot of rotten bathwater is being sieved out along with those babies.

I cannot condone it because it is wrong. My opinion of right and wrong does not change just because something wrong benefits me, or something that is right harms me.

However, I will be safer. That is a flat fact I cannot change, though I will at least try not to be happy about it.

Trump is the executive-order-flinging dictator I have wanted all my life who preserves my safety at the expense of others' freedoms. Only now do I truly understand how wrong that is.

Somehow I didn't connect this desire to be safe from harm with the naked selfishness it exemplifies. I guess it took getting my way, but I now understand on a profound level how horribly wrong I was.

When you're being unfairly disadvantaged, it's easy to think about what you want as fairness. I guess when you get your wish, you get a little perspective to go along with it. Perhaps I can be forgiven in part since I didn't think anything like this would ever happen, and it was all-too-easy to use the word should when it was only ever a hypothetical.

But this is no longer a game and these are no longer figures on a chalkboard to be coldly tallied. These are people - people who are not getting what they ought to because I am.
  

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bitter clinging swiftie
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #2 - Jan 29th, 2017 at 9:23pm
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without congress it seems to me to be likely be unconstitutional
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #3 - Jan 29th, 2017 at 11:40pm
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bitter clinging swiftie wrote on Jan 29th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
without congress it seems to me to be likely be unconstitutional

Its my understanding that the Constitution applies to people in this country. It doesn't protect people in other countries unless they are a US citizen. 

The people who are being turned away are not US citizens. Therefore they don't enjoy protection of the Constitution until they set foot on our soil. That's why if the Cuban Boat People can touch the Florida beach with their toes, they are "safe" and enjoy everything the 14th Amendment has to offer. But if the Coast Guard intercepts them before they reach USA soil, they can be turned away.

That's how I understand it. Is this incorrect?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #4 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 7:21am
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 29th, 2017 at 11:40pm:
Its my understanding that the Constitution applies to people in this country. It doesn't protect people in other countries unless they are a US citizen. 

The people who are being turned away are not US citizens. Therefore they don't enjoy protection of the Constitution until they set foot on our soil. That's why if the Cuban Boat People can touch the Florida beach with their toes, they are "safe" and enjoy everything the 14th Amendment has to offer. But if the Coast Guard intercepts them before they reach USA soil, they can be turned away.

That's how I understand it. Is this incorrect?

That's what the courts have said. My reading is somewhat different. All persons within the jurisdiction of the U.S. are entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws. That's not exactly the same as citizenship rights and privileges. Certainly non-citizen criminals can be deported and criminal citizens cannot. It seems just as certain the non-citizens can be prevented from entering the U.S. while citizens cannot.

Does the President have any legitimate authority to alter or ignore the laws? It seems the Obama usurpations have been accepted as precedent.

Is there actually a law passed by Congress giving "refugees" free entry into the U.S. and complete access to "welfare"? Perhaps there is, but I think what Trump is doing is saying "Wait a minute, we have to be careful, very careful, in deciding who is actually a "refugee", and until we have a good functional system to make that determination, we can and should halt the open borders to everyone from countries that create and support terrorists."
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #5 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 12:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 30th, 2017 at 7:21am:
...I think what Trump is doing is saying "Wait a minute, we have to be careful, very careful, in deciding who is actually a "refugee", and until we have a good functional system to make that determination, we can and should halt the open borders to everyone from countries that create and support terrorists."

Yes. The ban is only for 90 days until a good vetting plan can be cobbled together.  And of course, Trump will have defeated ISIS by then.

But I would like to see resettlement programs for refugees that would place the refugees in Gulf State countries where they could feel more "at home".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #6 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 4:35pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 30th, 2017 at 12:01pm:
Yes. The ban is only for 90 days until a good vetting plan can be cobbled together. 
But I would like to see resettlement programs for refugees that would place the refugees in Gulf State countries where they could feel more "at home". 

I'm pretty sure the ban is effective now. Our Chief Executive just gave orders to the people who work for him in Executive branch Depts. and I believe they are planning to comply with his Executive Order.

There are good plans for immigration policy, Congress should debate the best half dozen or so and make the best one into law. If we are lucky, they law they make won't discriminate.

I don't care where refugees from all the wars in the Middle East (as usual) go, as long as I don't have to pay for it. I might not like it if Saudi Arabia decides to send Syrian refugees to Turkey, because they probably don't want to go to Turkey, and I'd ask for UN sanctions on the Saudi Royalty to make their oil worthless. The UN could do that, right?
  
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #7 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 4:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 30th, 2017 at 4:35pm:
There are good plans for immigration policy, Congress should debate the best half dozen or so and make the best one into law. If we are lucky, they law they make won't discriminate.
Cheesy Cheesy CheesyMan, sometimes I forget how optimistic you can be.

I don't know if it's unconstitutional, it probably is for reasons mentioned by others. 

It will not make me any safer, mostly because as an American who doesn't live in Chicago, I'm already about as safe as any human can be.  I'm fine with lots of refugees coming here.   I feel no threat from the tiny trickle of Muslims and Arabs that have or will come to the US.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #8 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 5:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Jan 30th, 2017 at 4:35pm:
... I'd ask for UN sanctions on the Saudi Royalty to make their oil worthless. The UN could do that, right?

Sure, they could, it would spell economic disaster for the US.  As you know, in 1973, the US made special deals with Saudi Royalty that if they agreed to sell their oil exclusively for US Dollars, the US would provide them military advisors, hardware, and munitions.

This was specifically designed to prop up the US Dollar to make it seem more valuable than it really was, and also to prop up the US MIC.  If UN leveled any sanctions on the Saudis, the dollar would tumble, "defense" contractors would be forced to lay off employees, foreign held Treasuries would come flooding back,  and the US economy would quickly collapse.

Yah,,  that's one boat we don't want to rock.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Trump's Travel Ban For Muslims Un-Constitutional?
Reply #9 - Jan 30th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jan 30th, 2017 at 5:05pm:
Sure, they could, it would spell economic disaster for the US.  As you know, in 1973, the US made special deals with Saudi Royalty that if they agreed to sell their oil exclusively for US Dollars
That's going to end no matter what.
Do we want to be the only people left in the world who are required by law to use Federal Reserve "notes" after everybody else in the world stops accepting them?
  
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