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The Opposition
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Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:16pm
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Jeff represents everything about freedom to me: A very nasty individual inadequately restrained by the rules.

I don't hate Jeff. Like all of us, he's just an animal employing his particular survival strategy. Unfortunately, the get-away-with-everything within the bounds of the NAP strategy makes everything worse for everyone when employed, precisely because in a libertarian world it is the ideal strategy, and those who don't employ it lose.

Case in point: Telling people to commit suicide, or simply asking them to consider it over and over again, is not against the NAP. So why not employ this against anyone you don't like? Well, of course you should. Any minuscule chance it might elicit a result is worth the negligible effort of doing it.

You see this same behaviour in online gaming communities because it wins. If the community isn't moderated, it rapidly degrades into what I lovingly call a basket of jeffs. The people not employing this behaviour lose, and either quit the game or adopt the behaviour.

Now... I do not have any desire to live in a basket of jeffs. But this is exactly what an ill-conceived notion like the NAP produces. Clear-cut rules are wonderful, but they also have to account for the human ability to skirt under, bend, and twist rules in order not to break them. A jeff will do anything in its power to hurt others and the NAP leaves it plenty of options.

Regulations are not born out of government greed; they're co-opted by government greed. If regulations were not born out of the need for them, there would be nothing to misuse. And here is the limit of what I mean by need: People don't want the world to degrade into a basket of jeffs so they make a rule against telling people to kill themselves. This doesn't happen because it's needed; it happens because without this rule, the world is a shitty place. The rule makes everything better for everyone, and the opposing freedom, because of just a few jeffs, makes the world worse for everyone.

A while ago a member joined this forum looking to start a libertarian community. And what did he do? He screened people meticulously. Well of course libertarianism will work (work in that the world will be non-shitty) if you exclude the jeffs. In the real world, though, we have to deal with them.

It's the conundrum of the Rule of Law: People abuse and twist the laws and get away with whatever they like while staying within the letter of the law. Under the Rule of Man, the man ruling would just crush them, no justification needed.

But the Rule of Law allows people security. It lets them know what they are and are not allowed to do. The Rule of Law clearly outshines the Rule of Man... it just has this one unfortunate consequence: It allows people to hurt others with impunity.

I do not blame Jeff for his nastiness. I blame the lack of rules. This forum has taught me that there are not social consequences; jeffs will not be ostracised. The rules are the rules, and the rules are lacking, so the behaviour will continue. I don't blame the human. It is not at fault for simply doing what advantages itself most. If, however, that strategy is harming others, I fail to see why I should love the void of rules that allows it.

Freedom is right, and any rules beyond the NAP are wrong, but I am under no obligation to love something that makes life universally worse for me. I'm already light years ahead of everyone else on the planet - they believe whatever benefits them the most is right. The welfare parasite wants more redistribution and the rich man wants more property rights. I actually give the back half of a rat about the philosophy behind it. I only care about what is right.

I just don't have to like it.

Or do I? Tell me.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #1 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 4:25am
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I learned a long time ago to not let things that people write on the internet get to me.  If that ever happened, its because I allowed it to.

This being a Libertarian forum, we should expect a little elbow room to exercise the 1st Amendment rights with impunity without being censored. The anonymity of the internet allows us to behave in a manner which may be very different from the way we relate to others face to face.

I think Jeff does this sometimes. And he should have the freedom to do it, IMO.

Don't let him get under your skin.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #2 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:16pm:
Case in point: Telling people to commit suicide, or simply asking them to consider it over and over again, is not against the NAP.

"People"? You say you are an evil sociopathic Dragon. You consistently deny being human.
To me, you are a smarter than average lizard.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #3 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 9:00am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:16pm:
Regulations are not born out of government greed; they're co-opted by government greed. If regulations were not born out of the need for them, there would be nothing to misuse. And here is the limit of what I mean by need: People don't want the world to degrade into a basket of jeffs so they make a rule against telling people to kill themselves.

You think there should be a federal "regulation" criminalizing asking evil sociopaths to consider killing themselves? I think what you actually want is a federal "regulation" criminalizing any speech that hurts your feelings.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #4 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 11:23pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 4:25am:
I learned a long time ago to not let things that people write on the internet get to me.  If that ever happened, its because I allowed it to.

This being a Libertarian forum, we should expect a little elbow room to exercise the 1st Amendment rights with impunity without being censored. The anonymity of the internet allows us to behave in a manner which may be very different from the way we relate to others face to face.

I think Jeff does this sometimes. And he should have the freedom to do it, IMO.

Don't let him get under your skin.


I don't really. I just don't want the entire world to be like this.

Imagine if this sort of behavior is allowed. It will thrive. I don't want my job to be a basket of jeffs. I don't want the local supermarket to be a basket of jeffs. It barely matters here. This is an internet forum. Not only is it worth it because I get to say what I like too... but If I don't like it, I can X out of it with a single click. I can't do that if the world goes the way of libertarianism.

Imagine every facet of life an unregulated schoolyard.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #5 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 3:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 11:23pm:
Not only is it worth it because I get to say what I like too... but If I don't like it, I can X out of it with a single click. I can't do that if the world goes the way of libertarianism.

That's the spirit!  Keep in mind it took nearly 2000 years for a Democratic Republic to emerge from the cesspits of aristocracy, timocracy, oligarchy, tyranny and despotism...The world isnt ready for Libertarianism. But it will be someday.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #6 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 11:32pm
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SkyChief wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 3:50am:
That's the spirit!  Keep in mind it took nearly 2000 years for a Democratic Republic to emerge from the cesspits of aristocracy, timocracy, oligarchy, tyranny and despotism...The world isn't ready for Libertarianism. But it will be someday.


Basically you're admitting I have a point.

It's because you're intellectually honest.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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BobK71
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #7 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 9:29pm
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My two cents is that we should remember there are two kinds of rules.  The rules that define how we interact with those we are associated with are complex and vary, for example, from family to family.  I am still trying to figure out my rules of engagement with Jeff.

But the rules we discuss deal with the actions of the state.  Libertarianism says the state should be tightly bound by rules, and its rule-making should be minimal, not that there is any 'right' (however that is defined) to be nasty to the human beings you deal with.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #8 - Feb 4th, 2017 at 10:02pm
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BobK71 wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 9:29pm:
My two cents is that we should remember there are two kinds of rules.  The rules that define how we interact with those we are associated with are complex and vary, for example, from family to family.  I am still trying to figure out my rules of engagement with Jeff.

But the rules we discuss deal with the actions of the state.  Libertarianism says the state should be tightly bound by rules, and its rule-making should be minimal, not that there is any 'right' (however that is defined) to be nasty to the human beings you deal with.


There absolutely is such a right. It is defined by the lack of any ability to use force against it. Part of my problem with the NAP is that it's too simple. Simple, easy-to-understand rules are good, except when they're not. When there's a clear line, there are also people who will, just for the sake of nastiness, skirt just under it, and continue to do so. They abuse their freedom of speech to hurt others.

And that's fine for the internet because I can turn it off.

When we get libertarianism, jeffs are free to follow me around all day and tell me to kill myself. Not cool. Yes, needs to be restrained by the power of government.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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BobK71
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Re: Jeff is Why I Hate Freedom
Reply #9 - Feb 7th, 2017 at 8:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Feb 4th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
There absolutely is such a right. It is defined by the lack of any ability to use force against it. Part of my problem with the NAP is that it's too simple. Simple, easy-to-understand rules are good, except when they're not. When there's a clear line, there are also people who will, just for the sake of nastiness, skirt just under it, and continue to do so. They abuse their freedom of speech to hurt others.

And that's fine for the internet because I can turn it off.

When we get libertarianism, jeffs are free to follow me around all day and tell me to kill myself. Not cool. Yes, needs to be restrained by the power of government.


Absolutely, I don't think any libertarian opinion would dream of allowing the state to mandate 'civility.'

But here's my thought on how your worst fears might not be warranted.  It pays no dividends for anyone to go out of their way to be nasty to someone.  At worst, we ignore those we don't like.  Remember, the epidemic lack of civility we see in our day exists under big economic and thus social distortions of the modern world system, which have steadily worsened since its start 500 years  ago, due to the progressive financial power-grabs by the elites aimed at keeping their bubbles afloat.  A (true) libertarian society probably wouldn't have those distortions.

Financial theft requires deception to cover up.  Deception causes instability.  Instability causes pain.  Pain causes anger and loss of faith in social norms.
  
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