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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why are they laws against victimless crime? (Read 984 times)
Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #10 - Apr 12th, 2017 at 7:51am
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stevea wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 9:02pm:
Maybe for the right price ;^) You got a problem w/ that, Libertarian ?


Nope, I just wasn't clear about what you meant. Obviously you are talking about Bob's being (sort of maybe) rich as a good thing for everybody, not just for you.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #11 - Apr 12th, 2017 at 7:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 9:23pm:
It does also devalue your money, though.

To me it depends heavily upon where it's coming from and how he got it, even if it didn't come out of someone else's pocket.

I want Bob to get it "legitimately" here meaning he contributed something for it. Even if he won the lottery, his windfall represents the contributions of many.

I want him to have a million horses. Horses are useful. Horses get devalued? Good for everyone. Same with pieces of cheese, sets of tweezers, bottles of hair dye, buckets of soda, or apples.

But money is where Gene's relative value really comes in, if you catch my drift here.

I'm pretty sure stevea was imagining a wonderful country that had real money, a place where Bob, even if he was a banker, wouldn't suddenly find his balance sheet pumped up with some newly created FRNs.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 2:46am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 12th, 2017 at 7:54am:
I'm pretty sure stevea was imagining a wonderful country that had real money, a place where Bob, even if he was a banker, wouldn't suddenly find his balance sheet pumped up with some newly created FRNs.


Me too.

But in the context of the question, there is one more reason not to want random Joe to suddenly get a windfall.

Even if Joe got it legitimately, if he contributed nothing in exchange for it, using slyness or perhaps the power of existing wealth, people will prefer he not have that windfall.

If people are better off as a result of this random person's efforts in gaining money, they ought to want him to have it. If they're worse off (and they might be even though they valued each transaction individually as making them better off; the sum of those transactions could still make all of them worse off) then they will prefer this fellow not have this windfall.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #13 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 6:40am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 2:46am:
Me too.

But in the context of the question, there is one more reason not to want random Joe to suddenly get a windfall.

Even if Joe got it legitimately, if he contributed nothing in exchange for it, using slyness or perhaps the power of existing wealth, people will prefer he not have that windfall.

If people are better off as a result of this random person's efforts in gaining money, they ought to want him to have it. If they're worse off (and they might be even though they valued each transaction individually as making them better off; the sum of those transactions could still make all of them worse off) then they will prefer this fellow not have this windfall.

"People prefer" that I don't make good investments that pay off well for me, and that's a "reason" I shouldn't realize those profits?

I suppose those same "people" would "prefer" that no one ever win the Publisher's Clearing House lottery or a state lottery either?

I'm still trying to figure out what you propose as a "reason" not to want people to gain "random windfalls"...

The best I can decipher from what you are saying is, the reason to not want it is that people don't want it?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #14 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 1:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 6:40am:
"People prefer" that I don't make good investments that pay off well for me, and that's a "reason" I shouldn't realize those profits?

I suppose those same "people" would "prefer" that no one ever win the Publisher's Clearing House lottery or a state lottery either?

I'm still trying to figure out what you propose as a "reason" not to want people to gain "random windfalls"...

The best I can decipher from what you are saying is, the reason to not want it is that people don't want it?


I'm not saying scamming is wrong. I know it's right. And before you object I'm defining scamming extremely broadly here, to include all instances of seeming to make someone better off with a transaction but actually making them worse off. In other words, the buyer sometimes judges that a transaction will benefit him, but often he misjudges and I am including all transactions designed to exploit that misjudgment as scamming.

1. If this random businessman gains money, and it is not fiat, others must have lost money.

2. Others do not want to lose money.

∴ Ergo, others will pick for this random person not to get a windfall if they have the choice.

3. That is, unless the person gained this money by adding things to the system that made others objectively better off. In other words, transactions that legitimately profit people rather than trickery/scamming.

Here's the problem: In established capitalism, it is very likely that established industry already exists to provide whatever commodity you want at a very reasonable price.

So how is Joe going to compete with that established industry? If he can't offer a better product or a better price, he can seem to do so. He can most easily compete and win by puffing up his bags of tortilla chips with even more air than the leading brand and providing even less ounces than they do. Absent ridiculous government regulations that force the companies to show how many ounces they actually provide, Joe probably will win.

If he wins this way - by making his money in a way that makes sure people have less tortilla chips - it is a flat fact that people won't want him to have that money. It's not about what's right and wrong but whether Gene is right about the matter. I tend to agree with him for the most part.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 3:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 1:19pm:
I'm not saying scamming is wrong.
That's because you're an evil sociopath.
  
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genepool
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Libertarians have their own definition of victimless crime.

Under libertarianism, american citizens that are out of job because of immigrants or because of car imports are NOT victim.

On the other hand, people that have to pay higher due to tariff are victim.

I would sort of agree.

But let's look at it from a different point of view.

Let's define victim as anyone worse off. That is we don't care whether the person is worse off justly or not.

In that case, there is no such thing as vicitimless crime.

There is always "victim". There is always someone that would be made worse off if something is NOT a crime.

Imagine if drugs are legal. Then mafia will have less margin. Cops will no longer be bribed. Others religious lunatic won't feel obeyed.

In that sense they are victim. Not in libertarian sense but in "real" sense nevertheless.

We don't have equal pecking order. Sometimes a person feel they are victim because we don't kowtow to them. Libertarians, however, always presume equal pecking orders.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #17 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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genepool wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 4:27pm:
Libertarians have their own definition of victimless crime.


No, we don't.

It's asshole 'progressives' who always have their own private definitions of things.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #18 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 5:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 3:28pm:
That's because you're an evil sociopath.


You want me to believe scamming is wrong? Fine. I do. It's that easy.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #19 - Apr 16th, 2017 at 5:35pm
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 15th, 2017 at 5:05pm:
You want me to believe scamming is wrong? Fine. I do. It's that easy.

Well, yes, for an evil sociopath who is a pathological liar, there is no problem claiming that you believe anything...

You lie when the truth sounds better. Grin

Can you remember ever telling the truth? I bet you got punished for it?

Buy your Mother a pistol and teach her how to use it. Thanks.
  
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