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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why are they laws against victimless crime? (Read 985 times)
kaz
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #20 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 2:57pm
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merkelstan wrote on Apr 10th, 2017 at 12:09pm:
If we hold a loose definition of 'victim' then many "crimes" (acts) are not victimless.

Spending my time on the Forum might not be the thing that I can do that creates most value: in that case responding to your post victimizes society and can be declared a crime.

Smoking might create victims among the other people in my insurance pool.

Repairing my own dishwasher victimizes the repairmen.

So we need to be very careful and specific about what we call a 'victim'.  Suffering some disadvantage is not sufficient.




What you are using as a "victim" is ridiculous.  You victimize people by not hiring them and by not working hard enough?

And BTW, smokers in capitalism pay into a higher pool, you aren't paying for them.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #21 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:40pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 2:57pm:
What you are using as a "victim" is ridiculous.  You victimize people by not hiring them and by not working hard enough?


Well, you do harm them. When does harm become victimisation? Well, only where aggression occurs.

This is kind of his point but this is where a lot of people start to balk at libertarianism: You can harm anyone you like, however much you like, as long as it's not aggression.

If you take someone out on your ship, as long as you never agreed not to, you can make him walk the plank. It's your ship; your property. You can exclude anyone at any time, sharks or no. You can even legally kill someone as long as you figure out how to do it without aggression. While this might generate the right to sue - because you did cause harm - dead people can't sue, so just make sure the fellow doesn't have a family and you're good.

Personally I see the alternative (being forced to keep him on the ship just because leaving will kill him) as worse but you won't get most people to admit that.

kaz wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 2:57pm:
And BTW, smokers in capitalism pay into a higher pool, you aren't paying for them.


Insurance companies will make money however they can. This means that for all the blather about good driver discounts and non-smoker discounts, they will milk you for all you are worth. (Especially in a system where you're forced to have the insurance.) They just can't make as much money on people who routinely cause the sorts of damage they insure against.

Think about it. The smoker who probably will get cancer costs more to take care of than a lifetime of paying into that. Okay; they pay into a separate "pool" - fine. But I wonder whose pool is generating all their profits.
  

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kaz
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #22 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 9:40pm:
Well, you do harm them. When does harm become victimisation? Well, only where aggression occurs.

This is kind of his point but this is where a lot of people start to balk at libertarianism: You can harm anyone you like, however much you like, as long as it's not aggression.

If you take someone out on your ship, as long as you never agreed not to, you can make him walk the plank. It's your ship; your property. You can exclude anyone at any time, sharks or no. You can even legally kill someone as long as you figure out how to do it without aggression. While this might generate the right to sue - because you did cause harm - dead people can't sue, so just make sure the fellow doesn't have a family and you're good.

Personally I see the alternative (being forced to keep him on the ship just because leaving will kill him) as worse but you won't get most people to admit that.


Insurance companies will make money however they can. This means that for all the blather about good driver discounts and non-smoker discounts, they will milk you for all you are worth. (Especially in a system where you're forced to have the insurance.) They just can't make as much money on people who routinely cause the sorts of damage they insure against.

Think about it. The smoker who probably will get cancer costs more to take care of than a lifetime of paying into that. Okay; they pay into a separate "pool" - fine. But I wonder whose pool is generating all their profits.


First point:  To use the word "victim" because you don't give someone something isn't a perspective, it's stupid

Second point:  You don't understand capitalism, competition and pricing.  It isn't random.

As long as government isn't interfering in the market, the market fixes that.  Companies get the appropriate risk adjusted rate of return.

Only government can warp markets because only government can use guns to force you to make choices against your own interest
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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merkelstan
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #23 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:32pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
As long as government isn't interfering in the market, the market fixes that.  Companies get the appropriate risk adjusted rate of return.


This is correct if the market includes private law.
  

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kaz
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #24 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:23am
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:32pm:
This is correct if the market includes private law.


Yes, we are only free when it's enabled by the ultimate coercive force, government.

So since you believe man can only exist with government, how did we exist before government?

Quite the conundrum, no?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #25 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:13pm
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[quote author=2F253E440 link=1491715462/24#24 date=1496928195]
By the Law of the Jungle or not at all.
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #26 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:22pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:23am:
Yes, we are only free when it's enabled by the ultimate coercive force, government.

So since you believe man can only exist with government, how did we exist before government?

Each individual man existed in a perpetual state of war.

Men formed governments in an attempt to bring about peace. Peace amongst the community, and later, peace between communities, and then peace between whole nations.

What are you, kaz? You are the product of thousands of years of breeding. You were bred for peace. You were bred to live in a society governed by laws, amongst a people who believe in those laws.

You do not have very much in common with your ancient ancestors who could be killed at a moment's notice by a roving band of raiders. No one like you existed or could have existed back then.
  

Jeff carpools with murderers.
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Jeff
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #27 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:00pm
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Dissident Right wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:22pm:
You are the product of thousands of years of breeding. You were bred for peace.
Har de har har.
Thousands of years of "breeding for peace"? Who was it doing this "breeding for peace"? Where was it occurring "thousands' of years ago?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #28 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 11:20pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
First point:  To use the word "victim" because you don't give someone something isn't a perspective, it's stupid


I also disagree that it should be used this way but the first definition in the dictionary does not assess aggression, only harm.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/victim?s=t
a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency

According to the dictionary, you can be a victim of circumstance or optical illusion or anything, as long as it harms or deceives you.

kaz wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 10:02pm:
Second point:  You don't understand capitalism, competition and pricing.  It isn't random.

As long as government isn't interfering in the market, the market fixes that.  Companies get the appropriate risk adjusted rate of return.


And who pays for the smokers in that system? Nobody. Nobody will pay for them because they can't pay in enough to pay for the damn cancer which they will get.
  

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kaz
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Re: Why are they laws against victimless crime?
Reply #29 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 9:53am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:00pm:
Har de har har.
Thousands of years of "breeding for peace"? Who was it doing this "breeding for peace"? Where was it occurring "thousands' of years ago?


He's just babbling like he usually does
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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