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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Taxation Theft? (Read 7479 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #10 - Apr 11th, 2017 at 6:29pm
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stevea wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 6:12pm:
I'll explain why you are silly-wrong, but it won't sink in.
No one said INCOME taxes !

If we're not talking about INCOME Taxes, WTF are we talking about?

Please tell me about some other methods the government use to steal & redistribute wealth from it's citizens.

Do you think Ron Paul is a kook for suggesting we should abolish the IRS?
  
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stevea
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #11 - Apr 11th, 2017 at 7:24pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 6:29pm:
If we're not talking about INCOME Taxes, WTF are we talking about?


We are talking about how to fund public goods.  That commonly (not always) involves taxes.  Has NOTHING to do specificlly w/ income taxes.  For example county courts here are funded by property taxes.

Quote:
Please tell me about some other methods the government use to steal & redistribute wealth from it's citizens.


WTF - you just claimed to school me abt how Marshals and Sheriffs were funded - now you suddenly don't recall ?!!? They were apparently funded by non-income taxes, like federal excise taxes & tariffs.   It's still "stealing" and still redistributing when they charged a huge excise on whiskey & glass windows or imports.


Quote:
Do you think Ron Paul is a kook for suggesting we should abolish the IRS?


I think you're a kook for bringing it up when it's massively irrelevant to the discussion.   If you think a VAT or sales tax or property tax is any less forcible taking than income tax - you are a kook.  What if instead of the FedGov taking 20% of your income, they force your employer to fork over the same amount ?   Is that non income tax less a forcible taking ?  Is it less harmful to your ends if they tax property ?


---

If you want public police & courts - then HOW do you pay for them ?  No one here said that INCOME taxes were required.  THat's you misreading and responding to your personal inner-demons.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #12 - Apr 11th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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stevea wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 7:24pm:
It's still "stealing" and still redistributing when they charged a huge excise on whiskey & glass windows or imports.

I will concede that there is some necessity for indirect taxes.

But a direct (Income) Tax is wrong and should have been struck down by the Supreme Court. The 16th Amendment should have been overturned.

You say that VAT, Property Tax, Excise Tax, etc,  are forcible taking of a persons wealth.  I don't see indirect taxes as theft.  Because If I don't want to pay a Liquor Tax, i don't buy alcohol. If I don't want to pay a Tobacco Tax, I don't buy tobacco. If I dont want to pay a Gasoline Tax, i buy a Tesla.

Income Tax is a direct Tax.  I cant avoid it - I can only take advantage of the loopholes which are available.

Police & Courts can (and should) be funded with Property Taxes. imo.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #13 - Apr 11th, 2017 at 9:15pm
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Woohoo!

Stevea's back!

Now maybe Dissident will come back and they'll get along.
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #14 - Apr 11th, 2017 at 9:21pm
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Debasing the currency without consent is theft. Taking money without direct consent is theft. So yes, taxation is theft.

Lots of services exist without theft. Some say statism is a religion. Well, the vast majority of congregations self fund on a completely voluntary basis. That's just one example of many. You don't need to force people to spend their money freely on logical purchases. Who would pick the cotton?

This question is more along the lines of whether a person supports the theory of the social contract, or whether they reject it. Taxation as theft/taxation as a necessity falls under the same argument rubric.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #15 - Apr 12th, 2017 at 7:47am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 11th, 2017 at 8:16pm:
But a direct (Income) Tax is wrong and should have been struck down by the Supreme Court. The 16th Amendment should have been overturned.

How many times have I referred you to Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co.?And yet, it seems you ohaven't read the opinions...

Taxes on incomes have always been correctly categorized as Indirect taxes, and they are exactly that as long as they are levied on actual income.

The problem arises when the government applies a tax that has the form of an Indirect tax to a subject like wages, the taxation of which is, in substance and effect, Direct.

Speaking of recommend reading, what steva has written in this thread is something else you should read, and re-read if necessary until you understand what he is saying.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #16 - Apr 12th, 2017 at 12:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Apr 12th, 2017 at 7:47am:
Taxes on incomes have always been correctly categorized as Indirect taxes, and they are exactly that as long as they are levied on actual income.

But Income Tax is not levied on "actual" income.  It is levied on more than just income, it is levied on tips, wages and salaries - none of which are "income". These things are compensation for our labors and services. They are quite different from interest, dividends, and annuities.

For practical definitions, Income Tax is a direct tax.

I must agree with Ron Paul on this. Income Tax is a devisive scam designed to make government more powerful and to redistribute wealth.

The IRS needs to be abolished.

Income Tax is a communist invention.  “a heavy progressive or graduated income tax” is Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto, which was written by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and first published in 1848.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-15/end-the-income-tax-abolish-the-irs/
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #17 - Apr 12th, 2017 at 5:41pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2017 at 12:57pm:
But Income Tax is not levied on "actual" income.  It is levied on more than just income, it is levied on tips, wages and salaries - none of which are "income".
Right. Exactly. That's the problem.


But, there is nothing wrong with the 16th Amendment. It has been overturned piece by piece until there is nothing left of it except the 'progressive' lie that it permits Direct taxation without apportionment, something it never did or was ever intended to do.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #18 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 6:44am
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http://www.atr.org/104-years-income-tax-then-and-now

What do you think, adjusting the standard deduction for inflation to get it back to what its supposed to be would solve a lot of problems with the entire tax...

Of course admitting that a tax on wages and salaries is a Constitutionally Direct tax that is illegal without being apportioned would be better yet! Cool
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Taxation Theft?
Reply #19 - Apr 15th, 2017 at 10:24am
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The lesson to be learned is that Government can't be trusted to make decisions on how taxes are collected and spent.  Because they will ALWAYS collect and spend more than what is necessary.  PERIOD.

Taxes are an instrument for tyranny and oppression. State-sanctioned slavery.  Our forefathers figured this out 240 years ago.

But we're the froggies in the boiling water. We've become acclimated to excessive taxation, and don't realize the harm it does. Our founding fathers would be furious.
  
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