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Corpax1
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Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
May 5th, 2017 at 8:34pm
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I thought this was a thought provoking concept taken from "Tale of a Slave" in Anarchy, State, and Utopia. It looks at the IRS as a means of pushing us into servitude.

If we keep scaling down the brutish nature of historic slavery, we get to where we are today. The government is a twisted "benevolent" force for all of us lowly serfs, only allowing us to keep the fruits of our labor to an extent it deems acceptable.

Tale of a Slave: The IRS Is Your Master
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #1 - May 5th, 2017 at 11:27pm
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The IRS should be abolished. Repeal the 16th Amendment.
https://www.ronpaul.com/taxes/
  
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Corpax1
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2017 at 12:04am
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SkyChief wrote on May 5th, 2017 at 11:27pm:
The IRS should be abolished. Repeal the 16th Amendment.
https://www.ronpaul.com/taxes/


Cheers to that.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2017 at 12:36am
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I would say it's property taxes that turn people into slaves even more so. Serfs, actually. If you have to pay rent on it, it's not yours.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #4 - May 6th, 2017 at 6:37am
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The Opposition wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 12:36am:
I would say it's property taxes that turn people into slaves even more so. Serfs, actually. If you have to pay rent on it, it's not yours.
Property Taxes benefit those who own property. I can't think of a more sensible tax. Property tax is not rent.  You can easily see where your property taxes go. That paved street that your house is on -  property tax.  That school you send your kids to - property tax. That park your family goes to on Sunday afternoon - property tax.  The cop that shows up at your door when your home gets burgled - property tax. That fire hydrant that the fireman uses to put out the fire in your kitchen - yep - property tax.

It could be argued that in some places, property taxes are too high, (*cough* California), but they are necessary. 

Income Tax should be unlawful.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #5 - May 6th, 2017 at 7:44am
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SkyChief wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 6:37am:


Income Tax should be unlawful.
It certainly is already unlawful to tax wages and salaries as 'income' when the substance and effect of that tax is Direct and it is not apportioned as all Direct taxes must be.
  
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stevea
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2017 at 8:40am
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Jeff wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 7:44am:
It certainly is already unlawful to tax wages and salaries as 'income' when the substance and effect of that tax is Direct and it is not apportioned as all Direct taxes must be.


FAIL!  16th amendment ....

Quote:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.



No - the constitution was written as an agreement between states, but it slowly devolved into a direct relationship between federal government and citizens, and more recently it is entirely ignored.

I don't think it would be any better if the taxes were apportioned to states (by the population method) and then the states created income or other taxes to pay the Feds.   That's mostly about creating a middleman in the tax collection process.  Doesn't address the real problem.

As a minarchist - if we allow that a government is needed for some basic functions (say defense,  courts, law enforcement) then these things must somehow be paid for.  This suggests a tax.  It might be an excise, or a commerce or a income tax, but in any case this is forcible taking or property, the product of labor, and is therefore tangentially related to slavery.  The only non-force notion I can imagine is that we run government by voluntary contributions, but I don't expect that would work well if at all.

The primarily problem IMO is that the enumerated powers have been interpreted by courts as the power to ... raise money, issue debt, run a post office, raise a military, support a navy, and in addition - any old thing the Congress imagines is needed.   How the courts came to support the idea that a 3 digit IQ guy like Jefferson made a restricted list of SPECIFIC things that Congress may do - and added a loophole to do anything at all is mind boggling - but that IS the current interpretation.  [also the inter-state commerce clause has been revised to mean regulation of local non-commerce as well!].

Also Congress/IRS is free to interpret "income" as anything they choose.  Money you pay in taxes or mortgage is magically not-income.   Interest you get on a bond or loan IS-income, unless it's a government bond, then not-income.   If you make a profit (capital gain) on a trade - that IS-income.  The social security "insurance" you get back is/is-not-income depending on how much other "income" you have.  They aren't just defining and taxing "income", they have created a means to spy on and regulate all your economic activities.  Like issuing & reporting a 1099 to your babysitter or tutor or hooker - it's a massive invasion of privacy.
  
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stevea
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #7 - May 6th, 2017 at 9:13am
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BTW - I like the style of the linked vid, but ....

Slavery is forced, directed labor, while income taxes are the taking of the product of (arbitrary) labor, if any.    Those two things are quiet distinct, and language distortions (like calling taxation slavery) is best left to dumass Progressives (who do it as a way of life).

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #8 - May 6th, 2017 at 3:29pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 6:37am:
Property Taxes benefit those who own property. I can't think of a more sensible tax. Property tax is not rent.  You can easily see where your property taxes go. That paved street that your house is on -  property tax.  That school you send your kids to - property tax. That park your family goes to on Sunday afternoon - property tax.  The cop that shows up at your door when your home gets burgled - property tax. That fire hydrant that the fireman uses to put out the fire in your kitchen - yep - property tax.

It could be argued that in some places, property taxes are too high, (*cough* California), but they are necessary. 

Income Tax should be unlawful.


Then deny all those services to those who don't pay.

Don't take their houses.

stevea wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 9:13am:
BTW - I like the style of the linked vid, but ....

Slavery is forced, directed labor, while income taxes are the taking of the product of (arbitrary) labor, if any.    Those two things are quiet distinct, and language distortions (like calling taxation slavery) is best left to dumass Progressives (who do it as a way of life).


I tend to agree. Even if they want to define it that way, it's not like there's no distinction between theft and slavery. No one is property and no one is being forced to do a particular thing.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Does the IRS turn us into slave-like citizens?
Reply #9 - May 6th, 2017 at 4:53pm
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stevea wrote on May 6th, 2017 at 8:40am:
FAIL!  16th amendment ....

What do you know about the 16th Amendment and where did you learn it?

Give me a brief synopsis of your understanding, please.

Just saying my statement was a "FAIL" without any explanation is very rude and ignorant.
  
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