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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1116 times)
Don_G
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There Are No Absoute Rights
May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/05/there-are-no-absolute-rights?so...

A challenge to name one!

The libertarian philosophy will always remain a fringe movement unless it's adherents accept that basic truth. I think that most do but they can't bring themselves to express the truth in that. And they destroy their credibility if they don't accept it as the obvious truth.

But there is a rational side to libertarianism. It's just unfortunate that most of those who profess to be libertarians are not doing it for their real reasons. They are mostly discontents and anti-establishment and their real feeling are anger at the system. No ideology can succeed with that as it's basis.

Can any libertarians accept that rights are always conditional and never absolute?

My motive doesn't need to be hidden. It is simply to ferret out those who are more angry than forwarding a libertarian agenda of ideals.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #1 - May 14th, 2017 at 1:48pm
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
The libertarian philosophy will always remain a fringe movement unless it's adherents accept that basic truth...
Agreed 100% .  We will always be a fringe movement.  And I'm good with that.  Smiley

Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
Can any libertarians accept that rights are always conditional and never absolute? 

The reason we have the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from tyrants who trample on our natural God-given rights.

I have arms in the house, not to protect us from burglars, or for hunting elk (the biggest wildlife we have around here is skunks and possums) - we have arms to protect us from those Progressives who endeavor to infringe on our right to bear arms.

I usually avoid claiming moral high ground on libertarian issues, but when it comes to the natural right of self-defense, It needs to be done.

from the linked article:
"As the old saying goes: if you want to shoot an assault weapon, go enlist."

The term "assault weapon" is meaningless in discussion relating to the right to keep and bear arms.

Every firearm ever manufactured coud be an "assault weapon", if it is used for the purpose of assaulting someone. If someone were to smash someone else's skull in with a baseball bat, the bat is an assault weapon.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #2 - May 14th, 2017 at 4:54pm
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
Can any libertarians accept that rights are always conditional and never absolute?


If they admitted that, they wouldn't be libertarians.

I tried to posit that a right must at least be discovered to be absolute and they shot me down.

"Nope. These are the rights we have. They are absolute. These are the ones that are real and those are the ones that are made up. End of story."

Welcome to the forum.

Here's a little tidbit that's a knockdown against all libertarians. Just ask them if the right not to be offended is a real right. Ask them if the right not to be physically struck is a real right. They will say no to the first and yes to the second even though each simply rests upon the believer's assumption that it is a true right.

I tried to construct a theory of rights that speaks to this issue and resolves it perfectly but I was shot down. Oh well.
  

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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #3 - May 14th, 2017 at 5:27pm
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I'm happy to see that I have agreement so far on there being no absolute rights..
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #4 - May 14th, 2017 at 5:50pm
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm:

My Right to keep you from raping my wife and daughter, using any means I can afford.

Do you want a better one? Or would you prefer to tell my that this right is not absolute? That someone somehow has the power to prevent me from easily and effectively killing your ass if you mess with my family or friends?

A gun would be the easiest and most effective way for me to keep you from raping my wife and daughter...

You say I shouldn't have one? Will you have a gun when you try to rape my wife and daughter?
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #5 - May 14th, 2017 at 5:52pm
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
I'm happy to see that I have agreement so far on there being no absolute rights..
You claim we can expect nothing but perhaps some privileges granted to us from time to time by benevolent tyrants? And withdrawn at their will or whim?
  
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #6 - May 15th, 2017 at 12:44am
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Jeff wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 5:50pm:
My Right to keep you from raping my wife and daughter, using any means I can afford.

Do you want a better one? Or would you prefer to tell my that this right is not absolute? That someone somehow has the power to prevent me from easily and effectively killing your ass if you mess with my family or friends?

A gun would be the easiest and most effective way for me to keep you from raping my wife and daughter...

You say I shouldn't have one? Will you have a gun when you try to rape my wife and daughter?


I checked them out and immediately decided it wasn't a good idea. Woof, woof!  I think they're both very safe when it comes to being sexually molested. But just in case I brought a gun because I was going to kill you first.

Just kiddin of course.  Oh, and you should learn to keep your family members out of conversations that could turn bad for you. Actually decent people keep them out all the time anyway.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #7 - May 15th, 2017 at 7:49am
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Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 12:44am:
I checked them out and immediately decided it wasn't a good idea. Woof, woof!  I think they're both very safe when it comes to being sexually molested. But just in case I brought a gun because I was going to kill you first.

Just kiddin of course.  Oh, and you should learn to keep your family members out of conversations that could turn bad for you. Actually decent people keep them out all the time anyway.

So we have no right to defend ourselves, but you recommend we hide and keep our mouths shut when the barbarians arrive?

In places where people do have the right to defend themselves, it's the barbarians who lay low and keep quiet... It rather seems to me that you believe it's the barbarians who have absolute rights?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #8 - May 15th, 2017 at 9:22am
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
I'm happy to see that I have agreement so far on there being no absolute rights..
Not quite.

Every person has the absolute right to self-defense. It's a natural right granted by nature (or God for the Believers). It's a right that can never be revoked. No government can revoke this right,  no tyrant,  no gang of street thugs, no assembly of Progressives.

Fortunately,  the US Constitution recognizes this natural right, and plainly declares that any infringement of this right is unlawful. But even it wasn't spelled out,  every person has the right to self defense.
  
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merkelstan
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #9 - May 15th, 2017 at 10:07am
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I guess this topic will get rehashed on libertarian forums til the heat death of the universe..

In libertarian ethics, individual rights are derived from the Natural Law philosophy. There was a natural law tradition from antiquity and the middle ages. Natural law is the oldest and most frequently used concept of political theory.

We consider rights to be inherent to the individual - not generated by man-made law. This means that rights are different from legal privileges which are granted by the ruler and can be rescinded at his will. Natural Rights are either given by God (Aquinas, 1225-1274) or inherent in man's nature (Hugo Grotius, 1583–1645).  Many consider the idea of Natural Law to spring from the ancient Greeks: "Aristotle (BC 384-322)... argues that aside from particular laws that each people has set up for itself, there is a common law or higher law that is according to nature (Rhetoric 1373b2-8)."

The most influential NL philosopher is probably John Locke (1632-1704) whose ideas were the basis for England's Habeus Corpus Act and strongly influenced the Founders who wrote the US Bill of Rights.

Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the topic. If you don't want to read much, at least read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_human_rights

Then to learn the origins of the constitutional and libertarian position, it's probably most important to get to know Locke: https://fee.org/articles/john-locke-natural-rights-to-life-liberty-and-property/

Then to learn the modern libertarian position, you'll need to read Rothbard's book, The Ethics of Liberty:
http://anarcho-capitalist.org/wp-content/pdfs/Rothbard%20%28Murray%29%20-%20The%....

As far as I understand it, Rothbard is basically the last word on libertarian rights theory, although AFAIK Hoppe did add one significant idea - that of the proof of self-ownership by Argumentation Ethics: https://mises.org/library/argumentation-and-self-ownership

In a better world, this would be taught in schools. I do hope that this helps get you started on the subject.
  

"Obviously, the lack of any evidence just proves Russia is behind the lack of evidence." - AZJoe
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