Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › There Are No Absoute Rights
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1117 times)
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2274
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #10 - May 15th, 2017 at 12:22pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 9:22am:
Not quite.

Every person has the absolute right to self-defense. It's a natural right granted by nature (or God for the Believers). It's a right that can never be revoked. No government can revoke this right,  no tyrant,  no gang of street thugs, no assembly of Progressives.

Fortunately,  the US Constitution recognizes this natural right, and plainly declares that any infringement of this right is unlawful. But even it wasn't spelled out,  every person has the right to self defense.


It's not an absolute right but it serves well to illustrate the point. If you walk up to me and slap my face for instance, I don't have the right to kill you.

This lack of absolute rights is demonstrated in your country quite frequently with police brutality. Unfortunately, not often enough in the outcome of the case but in the proceedings. The police are always required to provide justification for their actions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2274
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #11 - May 15th, 2017 at 12:35pm
Print Post  
merkelstan wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 10:07am:
I guess this topic will get rehashed on libertarian forums til the heat death of the universe..

In libertarian ethics, individual rights are derived from the Natural Law philosophy. There was a natural law tradition from antiquity and the middle ages. Natural law is the oldest and most frequently used concept of political theory.

We consider rights to be inherent to the individual - not generated by man-made law. This means that rights are different from legal privileges which are granted by the ruler and can be rescinded at his will. Natural Rights are either given by God (Aquinas, 1225-1274) or inherent in man's nature (Hugo Grotius, 1583–1645).  Many consider the idea of Natural Law to spring from the ancient Greeks: "Aristotle (BC 384-322)... argues that aside from particular laws that each people has set up for itself, there is a common law or higher law that is according to nature (Rhetoric 1373b2-8)."

The most influential NL philosopher is probably John Locke (1632-1704) whose ideas were the basis for England's Habeus Corpus Act and strongly influenced the Founders who wrote the US Bill of Rights.

Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the topic. If you don't want to read much, at least read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_human_rights

Then to learn the origins of the constitutional and libertarian position, it's probably most important to get to know Locke: https://fee.org/articles/john-locke-natural-rights-to-life-liberty-and-property/

Then to learn the modern libertarian position, you'll need to read Rothbard's book, The Ethics of Liberty:
http://anarcho-capitalist.org/wp-content/pdfs/Rothbard%20%28Murray%29%20-%20The%....

As far as I understand it, Rothbard is basically the last word on libertarian rights theory, although AFAIK Hoppe did add one significant idea - that of the proof of self-ownership by Argumentation Ethics: https://mises.org/library/argumentation-and-self-ownership

In a better world, this would be taught in schools. I do hope that this helps get you started on the subject.


It's all interesting reading but it doesn't challenge my assertion that there are no absolute rights. Some libertarians may say there are but I don't consider them being able to stand their ground. They usually exaggerate and get emotional as we have seen with SkyChief and Jeff. Although Jeff's comments stand alone as not even worthy of being considered serious.

SkyChief's example is closer to meeting the challenge but still obviously fails because his right to defend his family members is qualified. Simply by suggesting that his daughter or wife stole a sandwich from the deli and the police are knocking on his door to arrest the daughter.

If my example isn't what you consider suitable for the sake of argument then you should invent your own.

Libertarians must approach the argument in a rational way and leave their kneejerk emotions oout of it. I wonder if any can do that when submitting to the facts is going to question their political religion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3562
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #12 - May 15th, 2017 at 1:51pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 12:35pm:
Some libertarians may say there are but I don't consider them being able to stand their ground. They usually exaggerate and get emotional as we have seen with SkyChief and Jeff.
SkyChief's example is closer to meeting the challenge but still obviously fails because his right to defend his family members is qualified. Simply by suggesting that his daughter or wife stole a sandwich from the deli and the police are knocking on his door to arrest the daughter.

My example is infallible. That you cant see it, doesn't nullify it any way.

I have demonstrated that there is in fact, at least one absolute right.   You consider this emotional.

Whatever.   Its still true, and all the bed-wetting and hand-wringing won't change that.  Every peson alive has the absolute right to defend themselves.

It's quite possible they may lack the means, the skill, or perhaps even the will to defend themselves, but they absolutely have the right.

It's just plain 'ol logic and reason.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2274
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #13 - May 15th, 2017 at 2:24pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 1:51pm:
My example is infallible. That you cant see it, doesn't nullify it any way.

I have demonstrated that there is in fact, at least one absolute right.   You consider this emotional.

Whatever.   Its still true, and all the bed-wetting and hand-wringing won't change that.  Every peson alive has the absolute right to defend themselves.

It's quite possible they may lack the means, the skill, or perhaps even the will to defend themselves, but they absolutely have the right.

It's just plain 'ol logic and reason.


It's true that you have a right to defend yourself and I will grant you that you absolutely have that right.

But there will always be limitations on your rights because there are the rights of others to be considered.

I've given you an example but you ignore it. So provide your own example and I will always be able to qualify your rights.

Your right to keep and bear arms is a great example of why that right can't be absolute. It's qualified in the definition of 'arms'.

It's qualified by the laws of the land and that just happens to trump your 2nd. amendment.

You may as a libertarian want to have that 2nd. amendment rewritten in order to make it absolute.

Do I have the right to defend myself? Yes, within reasonable and lawful limits. How would you cause an affront to me that would justify my reliance on my rights?

In a way Jeff's ignorance and kneejerk reactions serve to aid my point. He sets up a scenario of threatening others in order to make a point that is invalid. His emotional kneejerk reaction has him defending his wife and daughter with his gun in his wild imagination. He's also expressing his pent up anger in his responses.

You too become emotional and less on topic with the use of terms such as 'bed wetting' and 'hand wringing'. It's accusing me of using those kinds of tactics when in fact I'm only using logical arguments.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3562
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #14 - May 15th, 2017 at 3:00pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
It's true that you have a right to defend yourself and I will grant you that you absolutely have that right.

Excellent!

Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
Do I have the right to defend myself? Yes, within reasonable and lawful limits. How would you cause an affront to me that would justify my reliance on my rights?

Absolute right means just that - absolute.  Absolute means without reasonable and lawful limits. If you choose to obey the lawful limits, that's fine.

With firearms, I obey laws and regulations as long as they don't conflict with the Second Amendment. There are many State and Federal laws and regulations which are in direct conflict with the Second Amendment. 

I can legally ignore any infringements on my Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.  I am not bound to abide by any Laws or Regulations which violate the Constitution.

Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
You may as a libertarian want to have that 2nd. amendment rewritten in order to make it absolute.

I like it the way it is.  I would like to get the State (California) lawmakers on board with the Constitution, because Sacramento has come out with some really bad gun laws lately.

I don't pay much attention to them because they violate the Constitution.

The biggest problem with gun control legislation is that many Progressive lawmakers ignore the primary reason we have the right to keep and bear arms.  They think we need want firearms for plinking cans off a fencepost or threatening a burglar trying to break in our house!   Cheesy

Of course, Guns can be used for these purposes, but the Framers understood the real reason the citizens need to be armed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2274
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #15 - May 15th, 2017 at 3:31pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 3:00pm:
Absolute right means just that - absolute.  Absolute means without reasonable and lawful limits. If you choose to obey the lawful limits, that's fine.


And there we have it! We have agreement and all you need to do now is change the law to suit your agenda. Otherwise you will/could break the law by asserting your absolute rights and the law will/could terminate you. (capital punishment)

There's no better admission from you that could say you are wrong any better than that.

Quote:
With firearms, I obey laws and regulations as long as they don't conflict with the Second Amendment. There are many State and Federal laws and regulations which are in direct conflict with the Second Amendment. 


Likely there isn't and the ones you imagine would only be due to your wrong interpretation of the law or the 2nd. A.

Quote:
I can legally ignore any infringements on my Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.  I am not bound to abide by any Laws or Regulations which violate the Constitution.


No you can't. You can try and end up being arrested for breaking the law. And your citing of the 2nd. A wouldn't save your ass. You know that and you now go on to say so.

Quote:
I like it the way it is.  I would like to get the State (California) lawmakers on board with the Constitution, because Sacramento has come out with some really bad gun laws lately.


Go ahead and try but keep this in mind until you succeed: Break the law and you are going to be in trouble and the 2nd. A won't help you out of it. FACT!

[quoteI don't pay much attention to them because they violate the Constitution. [/quote]

You pay attention to the laws that are influencing your behaviour but you want to pretend that you don't. That's harmless and of no importance to the real world.

Quote:
The biggest problem with gun control legislation is that many Progressive lawmakers ignore the primary reason we have the right to keep and bear arms.  They think we need want firearms for plinking cans off a fencepost or threatening a burglar trying to break in our house!   Cheesy


So go ahead and ignore them unless they have legislated. If they have legislated then you better not break their laws because you won't have a defense with your 2nd. A.

Quote:
Of course, Guns can be used for these purposes, but the Framers understood the real reason the citizens need to be armed.


Then laws were enacted to serve as interpretations of that 2nd. A. In some cases they may be very bad laws and contrary to the 2nd. A but they are still the law. Violate the law and you could find yourself in jail fighting to change the bad laws.

So what now libertarian? You've told me that absolute rights have reasonable and lawful limits. You probably don't consider those laws righteous and proper laws but that doesn't matter one bit when you get yourself smacked down for not abiding by them.

Like I said, you have no absolute rights. you just wish you did and imagine it so. And for the sake of reaching further agreement with you, all the laws you don't like are bad laws! LOL
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
merkelstan
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 553
Joined: Jan 22nd, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #16 - May 15th, 2017 at 3:53pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 12:35pm:
It's all interesting reading but it doesn't challenge my assertion


It completely negates it from start to finish..
  

"Obviously, the lack of any evidence just proves Russia is behind the lack of evidence." - AZJoe
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2274
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #17 - May 15th, 2017 at 4:01pm
Print Post  
merkelstan wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 3:53pm:
It completely negates it from start to finish..


Then fill your boots pal. Maybe you want to defend SkyChief who's now actually granted me the very words I was needing to make my point. Regardless of what the hell you think your point might be?

He's used the example of the 2nd. A to prove that his right is absolute. But then he essentially says that he needs to change existing laws that put qualifications on his right. He says that he'll ignore any existing laws that are contrary to the 2nd. A, and he's says that California has enacted such laws.

It doesn't get any better than that pal!

And so you were saying? Hs SkyChief erred in that which he has told me? Or are you happy to go down with him. Where did he go astray?

Maybe you can tell him and get him back on the beaten path. Right now he's lost somewhere in the woods and having a temper tantrum on another thread, telling me I'm not on topic enough to suit his priorities.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 18770
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #18 - May 15th, 2017 at 4:36pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
It's true that you have a right to defend yourself and I will grant you that you absolutely have that right.


Weasel. The Right to self defense is absolute.

Trying to twist it into "you have an absolute right to defend yourself by hiding" doesn't cut it with me.

All of us, even the weakest among us have a right to defend ourselves with the best means possible to us.
For rather feeble old ladies, a .38 Special or .380 automatic would be my suggestion, as long as they were willing to learn how to use it. Hey, if they can shoot an intruder in the eye with a .22 pistol from 15 or 20 feet, or right in the throat several times quickly, and maybe then in the eye, that would work really well... Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 18770
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #19 - May 15th, 2017 at 4:38pm
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 4:01pm:
Regardless of what the hell you think your point might be?


You can't understand anything anyone here says, you insist what you say is correct, and you won't answer question...

Have you considered running for office as a Libertarian? Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › There Are No Absoute Rights
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy