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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1428 times)
merkelstan
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #30 - May 15th, 2017 at 6:11pm
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Jeff wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
It's a pretty broad phrase, encompassing lots of potential situations...

Are you an alien? From where?

Do you really expect me to believe that you never in you life had to defend yourself or your property or a friend or family member? It's all a total mystery to you? Cheesy


He's saying animals have rights.  I don't agree.  The right to life is a human right which forbids aggression.  Self-defense is the ultimate means to enforce that right.  Saying all lifeforms have the right to self-defense misconstrues rights theory, badly.

You may have heard of lifeforms called 'predators'.  They must eat other animals to survive.  No choice in the matter.  Saying the struggle between predator and prey in a zero-sum-game for survival has anything to do with human rights, specifically the right to life (freedom from human aggression) is to misunderstand the concept.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #31 - May 15th, 2017 at 6:16pm
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merkelstan wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 6:11pm:
He's saying animals have rights.  I don't agree.
Compassionate humans have assigned legal rights to animals, in general, the right to be treated humanely. This doesn't apply to a bear or something that has decided to kill you or the neighbors mean Rottweiler who has escaped and is going for your throat. Mess it up the best way you can.
  
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kunstler
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #32 - May 15th, 2017 at 6:27pm
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Rights are relative. If you travel to Turkey, you have to behave differently. There are no universal behaviors that are tolerated everywhere. Russians have for example a steadfast rule that one should never cross one's foot over one's knee, showing the bottom of the sole to other people.  It's considered rude and you'll never see a Russian sit that way. Is it your right to sit that way in Russia?
  
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merkelstan
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #33 - May 15th, 2017 at 6:34pm
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(╯°□°)╯  ┻━┻
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #34 - May 15th, 2017 at 7:14pm
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merkelstan wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 6:03pm:
What is the "right to self-defense"? This is a problematic formulation. Is it the right to life?  To not be aggressed against? 

Not in this context.  If a person is being attacked, he has an absolute right to defend him/herself. This right cannot be revoked.  Same thing in the animal Kingdom.  The lion takes a calculated risk that the gazelle won't gore him with his horns. And its usually a good risk, because gazelles are typically timid creatures. But this has happened - a gazelle faced an attacking lion and gored it with its horns.

The right to life is not absolute, because if an aggressor doesn't recognize that the victim has a right to life, then that right is not absolute. The aggressor can kill.

But if that same aggressor denied his victim the right of self-defense, it doesnt matter. The victim can always choose to defend himself, regardless of the aggressor's willingness to accept the absolute right of self-defense.
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #35 - May 15th, 2017 at 7:22pm
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kunstler wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 6:27pm:
Rights are relative. If you travel to Turkey, you have to behave differently. There are no universal behaviors that are tolerated everywhere. Russians have for example a steadfast rule that one should never cross one's foot over one's knee, showing the bottom of the sole to other people.  It's considered rude and you'll never see a Russian sit that way. Is it your right to sit that way in Russia?


Rights certainly are relative kunstler. They relate to the country in which you are presently living or visiting. The laws of the country obvioiusly limit a person's rights.

But they have wandered off talking about animal rights now in desperation of saving their argument. If it was just semantics I would leave them with their confusion, but it's not. Not only are most rights conditional and limited, no rights are absolute.

For a right to be absolute it could never be challenged anywhere or at any time. No such right exists, therefore absolute can't be used to describe any right.

Let them try to invent one! maybe if they first understood that absolute is not limited by their constitution they would be able to move on?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #36 - May 15th, 2017 at 7:30pm
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Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 7:22pm:
For a right to be absolute it could never be challenged anywhere or at any time. No such right exists, therefore absolute can't be used to describe any right.

You cannot challenge someone's right to self-defense.  If they have the will, they have the right. Doesn't matter what you or any other "Progressive" thinks.
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #37 - May 15th, 2017 at 8:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
You cannot challenge someone's right to self-defense.  If they have the will, they have the right. Doesn't matter what you or any other "Progressive" thinks.


Sure I can. You don't even have the right to defend yourself by resisting arrest. Rightly or wrongly, you must abandon your right to defend yourself and submit to being arrested.

It's that way because it's conditional on you having a right to challenge the arrest. If your right was absolute you could just shoot the arresting officer.

Laws are enacted purposely for people like you! A cop can kill you for resisting arrest and then walk guilt free. It's only a matter of proving that his actions were just and right. Unfortunately, in your country they very often aren't.

Every time I come up with an exception, it is proof of your absolute or unconditional claim being wrong. Only your libertarians stubbornness and your resentment of authority that makes you a libertarian wannabe is keeping you from admitting the truth.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #38 - May 15th, 2017 at 8:45pm
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Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 8:00pm:
Sure I can. You don't even have the right to defend yourself by resisting arrest. Rightly or wrongly, you must abandon your right to defend yourself and submit to being arrested.

I think I understand why you are having such a hard time grasping the concept of absolute right of self-defense.

You are talking about legal terms - Laws made by men.  Laws only apply when people choose to obey them. I would point out that even in the scenario you described, I still have the absolute right to self defense. 

If I choose not to submit to arrest and defend myself, there's a possibility that I might overpower the arresting officer and I might injure or kill him. I'M NOT SAYING THAT I WOULD DO THIS!! I'm only stating that ultimately,  it is MY decision whether I use whatever resources I possess to defend myself, or submit to arrest.

My absolute right to self-defense never went anywhere.
  
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #39 - May 15th, 2017 at 11:30pm
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Constitutionalists =/= libertarians. Don't confuse overlap with synonymous.

As far as rights and how they are defined, libertarians support something similar to what Bastiat observed in his booklet titled "The Law". If you want a shorter explanation of what is written in such a tiny book, then there is no point going further because this will result in a very lazy discussion full of jumping to conclusions. You will also learn what is considered absolute and not, via the concept of positive and negative rights, both exist and are not libertarian categorizations, but social philosophy basics.
If you don't want to read the entire book, then you don't want the answer to your question. *hint* it's in the public domain, free, and hosted on a number of sites. Can be found with little effort.
  
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