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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1260 times)
Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #40 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:16am
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kunstler wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 6:27pm:
Rights are relative. If you travel to Turkey, you have to behave differently. There are no universal behaviors that are tolerated everywhere. Russians have for example a steadfast rule that one should never cross one's foot over one's knee, showing the bottom of the sole to other people.  It's considered rude and you'll never see a Russian sit that way. Is it your right to sit that way in Russia?
Very few governments anywhere at any time have recognized, respected and protected individual Rights. That doesn't make Rights "relative", it just makes them generally infringed or denied.

Is it illegal to be rude in Russia? That probably depends on who you are rude to. Shocked

(The U.S. is a shining example of how individual rights should be valued and protected... or at least it used ot me, mostly, sort of.... Even with the qualifiers, the fact is our Supreme Law enshrines individual Rights as fundamental. Nobody else has done it so well or for so long.)That doesn't make Rights "relative", it just makes them generally infringed or denied.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #41 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:25am
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SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 7:14pm:
The right to life is not absolute, because if an aggressor doesn't recognize that the victim has a right to life, then that right is not absolute. The aggressor can kill.

I disagree. Just because a criminal barbarian can kill you doesn't change the fact that your right to live is absolute.
You agree that the right of self defense is absolute- but a criminal barbarian might kill you before you get a chance to exercise that right... That doesn't change your right to self defense does it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #42 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:30am
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Don_G wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 7:22pm:
For a right to be absolute it could never be challenged anywhere or at any time. No such right exists, therefore absolute can't be used to describe any right.


Rights disappear if they are challenged or denied?
That seems simple minded even to me...

Certainly possessing the right to speak freely or worship as you please can be abridged and denied. That doesn't effect the right at all, in merely denies one the exercise of the still possessed right.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #43 - May 16th, 2017 at 7:36am
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Crystallas wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 11:30pm:
Constitutionalists =/= libertarians. Don't confuse overlap with synonymous.

You will also learn what is considered absolute and not, via the concept of positive and negative rights, both exist and are not libertarian categorizations, but social philosophy basics.

That's true, but classical liberals/constitutionalists actually imagined and created and are trying to preserve a practical means of securing Rights to everyone.
The lunatic anarchist fringe of libertarianism has some overlap with the classical liberal/constitutionalists, but they have no plan other than hoping for the best from every individual.

Positive rights? Can you describe them so they are not synonymous with privileges, available to some only at the forced expense of others?

This seems somehow timely-

http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/15/the-birth-of-the-living-constitution
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #44 - May 16th, 2017 at 9:39am
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Jeff wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 7:25am:
I disagree. Just because a criminal barbarian can kill you doesn't change the fact that your right to live is absolute.
You agree that the right of self defense is absolute- but a criminal barbarian might kill you before you get a chance to exercise that right... That doesn't change your right to self defense does it?

I'm talking Law Of The Jungle - not Civil Law. The barbarIan can refuse to accept your right to life,  and deprive you of it by his will and action.  But your absolute right of self-defense - - the barbarian cannot deprive you of that right.  He can drug you, he can be stealthy, or use trickery, to render you incapable to exercise self-defense,  but your right remains intact.
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #45 - May 16th, 2017 at 12:23pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 15th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
I think I understand why you are having such a hard time grasping the concept of absolute right of self-defense.


I thnk you understand now too.

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You are talking about legal terms - Laws made by men.  Laws only apply when people choose to obey them. I would point out that even in the scenario you described, I still have the absolute right to self defense.


Yes, I'm talking in legal terms! Laws are made by men! Yes! Are you suggesting somebody else makes them? The gods?
In the scenario I described you may have the ability to defend yourself by it certainly isn't a right to defend yourself! You have to admit I'm right on that and so, you've dug your hole deeper by even mentioning it. 

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If I choose not to submit to arrest and defend myself, there's a possibility that I might overpower the arresting officer and I might injure or kill him. I'M NOT SAYING THAT I WOULD DO THIS!! I'm only stating that ultimately,  it is MY decision whether I use whatever resources I possess to defend myself, or submit to arrest.


I don't see your point there but I suppose I can't argue with it. You've pointed out that you have the ability, the will,  and maybe even the courage to defend yourself. And then when they eventually arrest you, you can tell the AUTHORITIES that you had a right to do what you did. And you will have somebody else to argue with, but I suspect they won't have the paticence I have had with you!

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My absolute right to self-defense never went anywhere. 


It never existed and that's the reason why you are now facing lethal injection. (or life) Or more likely, they killed you because they usually do murder cop killers.

Rights are granted to citizens and rights are taken away from citizens. I'll leave it up to you to answer the simple question of who can do that.

I'll dance around in this circle with you as long as you like. You've now gotten yourself into a scenario in which you are inventing rights that are not granted.

Why not listen and read what others are saying? Maybe some real libertarian can rescue from the mess you have created for yourself. Not even Jeff sounds as ridiculous and desperate as you do now!
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #46 - May 16th, 2017 at 12:36pm
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SkyChief: Quote:
The barbarIan can refuse to accept your right to life,  and deprive you of it by his will and action.


Yes, he can kill you, and so can the police!

Quote:
But your absolute right of self-defense - - the barbarian cannot deprive you of that right.


I guess I agree fwiw, and that's not really anything. But the society in which you live has deprived you of that right by law, when dealing with the police.

It's only your stubbornness that prevents you from admitting that's so. But by bringing up the barbarian scenario you have again opened the door for me to illustrate to you how that particualar right is not absolute. Thus digging you hole a little deeper. Now there's only the top of your head bobbing away over the top of the grass, as you frantically scratch at the dirt that is your only remaining lifeline.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #47 - May 16th, 2017 at 4:13pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 9:39am:
I'm talking Law Of The Jungle - not Civil Law.
Holy Shit Oldman! The law of the jungle pretty much went away in theory with the Enlightenment.
That was a long time ago... And every liberal civilized individual hopes the law of the jungle won't ever return to rule them.

You like it? The law of the jungle?
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #48 - May 16th, 2017 at 4:20pm
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Don_G wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 12:23pm:
Yes, I'm talking in legal terms! Laws are made by men! Yes!

Calm down. Laws are made by men, but they can differ greatly, mainly because of the process of making them and who has "input".

If one man (or one human) can make "law" with "a pen and a phone", that's far different than the federal system designed by our Constitution.

The whole idea of the Constitution, it's most essential objective, was to throw off and prevent tyranny.

If you want to be tyrannized, Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smileyplease, move somewhere where your wish will be granted.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #49 - May 16th, 2017 at 9:30pm
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No one ever quite addressed the slap in the face thing.

To those who believe self-defence is absolute, do you have the right to kill someone who slaps your face?

What about property? Is that an absolute right?
  

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