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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1109 times)
SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #50 - May 16th, 2017 at 10:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 9:30pm:
To those who believe self-defence is absolute, do you have the right to kill someone who slaps your face?

I can't possibly express my disappointment with this question.

I had given you so much more credit!   Cry

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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #51 - May 16th, 2017 at 10:32pm
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Jeff wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 4:13pm:
Holy Shit Oldman! The law of the jungle pretty much went away in theory with the Enlightenment.
That was a long time ago... And every liberal civilized individual hopes the law of the jungle won't ever return to rule them.

You like it? The law of the jungle?
It doesn't matter what I like or what you like.  Reality is reality, no matter what 'spin' is attatched to it.

If you think Civil Law trumps Jungle Law, go right ahead and continue to delude yourself. 

When Civil Law breaks down, you are in for a BIG surprise.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #52 - May 17th, 2017 at 8:07am
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SkyChief wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 10:32pm:
If you think Civil Law trumps Jungle Law, go right ahead and continue to delude yourself. 

Civil law recognizes the Right of self defense... Were you not aware of that?

The ultimate purpose of civil law is to prevent the law of the jungle from being implemented by barbarians, so yes, if we had no laws and no means of enforcing them, many people would revert to the law of the jungle... But many more would band together and try to prevent the barbarians from overrunning their neighborhoods. Smiley


  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #53 - May 17th, 2017 at 10:24am
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Jeff wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 8:07am:
Civil law recognizes the Right of self defense... Were you not aware of that?

Yes, I'm quite aware of that. But with Civil Law, the right to Self-Defense is not absolute. It certainly is in Jungle Law.

In the city, if a man slaps your face and you shoot/kill him, you will be facing criminal charges and "wrongful death" lawsuits from the family of the deceased. A jury will assess 'damages' to the dead man's family, and you will pay millions.  Your right to self-defense is conditional and subjective.

In the jungle, if a man slaps your face and you shoot/kill him, you will immediately gain the respect of anyone who witnessed it. They will whisper "Don't ever slap Jeff - he might kill you". Your right to self-defense is unconditional and absolute.
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #54 - May 17th, 2017 at 12:15pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 9:30pm:
No one ever quite addressed the slap in the face thing.

To those who believe self-defence is absolute, do you have the right to kill someone who slaps your face?

What about property? Is that an absolute right?


No, property isn't an absolute right. Try not paying property taxes and see how fast your right disappears!
  
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Don_G
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #55 - May 17th, 2017 at 12:21pm
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And something else comes to mind too Opposition. Try using your gun for an illegal purpose or against the police and see how long you have a right to bear that arm!
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #56 - May 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:24am:
Yes, I'm quite aware of that. But with Civil Law, the right to Self-Defense is not absolute. It certainly is in Jungle Law.

In the city, if a man slaps your face and you shoot/kill him, you will be facing criminal charges and "wrongful death" lawsuits from the family of the deceased. A jury will assess 'damages' to the dead man's family, and you will pay millions.  Your right to self-defense is conditional and subjective.

In the jungle, if a man slaps your face and you shoot/kill him, you will immediately gain the respect of anyone who witnessed it. They will whisper "Don't ever slap Jeff - he might kill you". Your right to self-defense is unconditional and absolute.
You have it right, but you keep trying to spin it so it sounds like you should confer with a lawyer before you undertake to defend yourself, and if you don't, you're reverting to barbarism.

It's not nearly that complicated. Civil law is about making the victims of torts whole. Large bodies of the common law are simply rational precedents about how to settle disputes fairly.

Proportionality is (is supposed to be) an integral part of our law. The punishment must fit the crime or it is unjust to someone. When the punishment fits the crime (or fitting restitution is paid) justice is said to be done.

Assault that grows to battery, a physical attack, in a just system, is supposed to be met by the appropriate force to protect you or you family from physical harm. Good judgement is required, but it is fitting to meet physical attacks with enough force to stop the attack. Thus saving an innocent life! Smiley

This is the most moral thing to do.

When you kill people for disagreeing with you, you have used disproportionate force in reply to the harm done to you. Obviously, it's simply murder.

edit: I got wound up and forgot to mention that it's mostly criminal gangs where you get "respect" for being murderous.
« Last Edit: May 17th, 2017 at 5:16pm by Jeff »  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #57 - May 17th, 2017 at 3:56pm
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Don_G wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:15pm:
No, property isn't an absolute right. Try not paying property taxes and see how fast your right disappears!
What a tired old biscuit.
Any contract you are a party to involves claims against your property. That doesn't alter your Right to property. (And I know why 'progressives' always say that...)

You may disagree that you became party to a contract between the local government and the citizens if you want to. Go ahead and give it your best shot. Start in the local Court, that will be cheaper and easier than taking it right to the District Court. Grin

edit: On second thought, you might want to take into the 9th Circuit Appeals Court... You could win there! Cheesy

Why hasn't Kalifornia outlawed taxation yet? What are they waiting for? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 17th, 2017 at 5:18pm by Jeff »  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #58 - May 17th, 2017 at 4:01pm
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Don_G wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:21pm:
Try using your gun for an illegal purpose or against the police and see how long you have a right to bear that arm!
It's not as drastic as cutting off hands or blinding them (or both)... I think committing crimes against community members while using a gun merits the loss of more rights than just the right to own guns and use them.

I have recommended public hanging for people who are convicted three (sometimes two...) times of violent felonies. I don't care if they use guns or carve people up and gut them with knives. Three violent felonies and off to the gallows would completely eliminate the right to bear arms for the hung person.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #59 - May 17th, 2017 at 6:22pm
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Jeff wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm:
Assault that grows to battery, a physical attack, in a just system, is supposed to be met by the appropriate force to protect you or you family from physical harm. Good judgement is required, but it is fitting to meet physical attacks with enough force to stop the attack. Thus saving an innocent life! Smiley
Precisely my point.  You have just confirmed my assertion that self-defense is conditional under Civil Law. It is not absolute.

Under Jungle Law, self-defense can be whatever the defender chooses. There are no such considerations as "good judgement" or "disproportionate force".   In the Jungle, the right of self-defense is absolute.


Jeff wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm:
I got wound up and forgot to mention that it's mostly criminal gangs where you get "respect" for being murderous.
In the Jungle, a person who kills his foes is usually respected and feared. Sometimes they become the stuff of legends.
  
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