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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) There Are No Absoute Rights (Read 1436 times)
The Opposition
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #60 - May 17th, 2017 at 9:37pm
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Don_G wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:15pm:
No, property isn't an absolute right. Try not paying property taxes and see how fast your right disappears!


Don_G wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:21pm:
And something else comes to mind too Opposition. Try using your gun for an illegal purpose or against the police and see how long you have a right to bear that arm!


No one's saying you can do those things. To libertarians, absolute rights mean for all. The second you infringe on another person's rights, you become the one in the wrong, because you're violating rights.

Examples of violating rights being wrong do not disprove absolute rights.

The way to think of it is that every right has exactly a single caveat: Don't use it to violate someone else's rights. In this way alone they are not absolute but it's the only way for everyone - or even more than a single person - to get a taste.

Don_G wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 12:15pm:
No, property isn't an absolute right. Try not paying property taxes and see how fast your right disappears!


If you want to argue libertarianism on their level, examples of how our society actually works are out of bounds. In the libertarian mind, taxation is theft, and wrong, and aggression.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #61 - May 17th, 2017 at 10:05pm
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SkyChief wrote on May 16th, 2017 at 10:08pm:
I can't possibly express my disappointment with this question.

I had given you so much more credit!   Cry

#Pitiful! 


I don't consider it that awful a question. Must self-defence be proportional, or is it unlimited?

There's also the question I've posed before of One-Punch Willy, who goes around bricking people in the face as hard as possible, but never punches the same person more than once. No one is, in a literal sense, "defending" themselves from Willy. Everyone who hits back is guilty of pure retaliation.

This, put together with the fact that someone must first pose a credible threat to you before you defend, pretty much knocks the idea of self-defence on its ass.

It's a silly scenario but it brings to light what people actually want to do when they speak high words of self-defence: They want to retaliate.

Most of the time, the situation is not the burglar threatening your home and person in the immediate.

Only my theory of rights justifies retaliation and people didn't like it. So yes, I'm going to proceed to tear yours asunder. And yes, it's out of spite.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #62 - May 18th, 2017 at 3:09am
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The Opposition wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 10:05pm:
I don't consider it that awful a question. Must self-defence be proportional, or is it unlimited?
In a civilized society with Civil Laws, self-defense must be measured and proportional to the threat.

Under Jungle Law, self-defense can be whatever the one who is in the defensive position deems it to be.

Many years ago, a co-worker of mine was walking around in a daze, staring off into the distance, and seemingly unable to perform her duties.  I asked her if I could help in some way. She told me that she had shot and killed a man earlier that day!  Shocked

We later learned that she hadn't actually killed anyone, but she definitely shot someone.

She was going to her kitchen to start the coffee or something. It was still dark, and before she turned on the lights, she heard a scratching noise at the kitchen window.   The street lights were still on, and she could clearly see the silhouette of a person at the window, trying to jimmie the window lock with a tool. 

She had a revolver, and fired one shot at the silhouette.  She told me she fainted, and when she came to, she called 911 and waited for the police to arrive. She assumed the man that she shot was dead and laying in a pool of blood beneath her window.

long story short, the officer made a report and told her that she might face criminal charges because her "attacker" was shot outside her house. The man she shot was arrested at the hospital where he went for treatment.  The guy had a long police record and was a parolee.

My co-worker friend was charged with misdemeanor "discharging a firearm within city limits" and ordered to pay a $185 fine.

The moral of the story is we must wait for the attacker to force entry before using a firearm in self-defense.
  
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #63 - May 18th, 2017 at 6:55am
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SkyChief wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 3:09am:
The moral of the story is we must wait for the attacker to force entry before using a firearm in self-defense.
Not always. If you happen to be on your front porch when some barbarian shows up and attacks, you can shoot him in the front yard. As I said, judgement is required. It also matters whether or not you are large and powerful and your attacker is a small person or vice versa.

It's an unfortunate fact that violent felons who have been released from prison, no matter how long and horrible their records, are considered by the law to be rehabilitated or something like that. Maybe sometimes they are, but if so, what are they doing trying to break into your house?

Certainly a jury would take a persons criminal record into account if you were being charged with a criminal offense for killing the ex-con in self defense, but our courts think its not fair to the rehabilitated criminals, so they don't want the jury to hear about criminal records. In small communities like where I live, there will be people on the jury (most likely) who know that the guy you shot needed to be shot and it was just a matter of time before someone did it.
  
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kaz
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #64 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 2:37pm
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Don_G wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 12:31pm:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/05/there-are-no-absolute-rights?so...

A challenge to name one!

The libertarian philosophy will always remain a fringe movement unless it's adherents accept that basic truth. I think that most do but they can't bring themselves to express the truth in that. And they destroy their credibility if they don't accept it as the obvious truth.

But there is a rational side to libertarianism. It's just unfortunate that most of those who profess to be libertarians are not doing it for their real reasons. They are mostly discontents and anti-establishment and their real feeling are anger at the system. No ideology can succeed with that as it's basis.

Can any libertarians accept that rights are always conditional and never absolute?

My motive doesn't need to be hidden. It is simply to ferret out those who are more angry than forwarding a libertarian agenda of ideals.


Nowhere in that article did it quote anyone saying that gun rights are absolute.

It's not that hard.  Your Constitutional rights can be Constitutionally infringed upon through due process.

When someone is convicted of a crime, you can limit their rights.  If you can through due process prove someone doesn't have their full mental faculties, you can Constitutionally limit their rights for things like gun ownership as well.

What point is it you think you're making?  I'm not clear
  

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merkelstan
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #65 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:49pm
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The troll argues that 'because your rights can be violated, they don't exist'.

The inanity of this argument is as obvious as its widespread acceptance by the boobigentsia.

It is beneath warranting further comment.  If you wish to, you can learn about natural rights.  You haven't and therefore don't.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #66 - Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:53pm
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:49pm:
The troll argues that 'because your rights can be violated, they don't exist'.

The inanity of this argument is as obvious as its widespread acceptance by the boobigentsia.

It is beneath warranting further comment.  If you wish to, you can learn about natural rights.  You haven't and therefore don't.


I don't agree with him but I want to be fair.

It's not that rights can be violated so they don't exist; it's more like rights can be justifiably violated, so they're not absolute.

There isn't a right to freedom which is absolute (for example) because it is %$#&ing necessary to put people in jail sometimes.
  

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kaz
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #67 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:29am
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 7th, 2017 at 11:49pm:
The troll argues that 'because your rights can be violated, they don't exist'.

The inanity of this argument is as obvious as its widespread acceptance by the boobigentsia.

It is beneath warranting further comment.  If you wish to, you can learn about natural rights.  You haven't and therefore don't.


I'd put it that he's a typical liberal who wants to argue hyperbole to avoid a real debate.  I hear the word "absolute" from liberals as a constant strawman.  Other than a few anarchists, I don't see anyone argue gun rights are absolute.

1)  You cannot aim guns at people who are not threatening you
2)  You cannot shoot guns randomly into the street
3)  You cannot use guns to intimidate people in public places
4)  Children do not have gun "rights."  We may grant them access to guns under controlled situations, but they don't have "rights" until they reach the age of majority

And again, your gun rights can be restricted through due process of law.

Gun rights are not absolute.  The answer to that is no shit Dick Tracey.  The only absolute point he made was his point was absolutely pointless.
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: There Are No Absoute Rights
Reply #68 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:12pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:29am:
I'd put it that he's a typical liberal who wants to argue hyperbole to avoid a real debate.  I hear the word "absolute" from liberals as a constant strawman.  Other than a few anarchists, I don't see anyone argue gun rights are absolute.

1)  You cannot aim guns at people who are not threatening you
2)  You cannot shoot guns randomly into the street
3)  You cannot use guns to intimidate people in public places
4)  Children do not have gun "rights."  We may grant them access to guns under controlled situations, but they don't have "rights" until they reach the age of majority

And again, your gun rights can be restricted through due process of law.

Gun rights are not absolute.  The answer to that is no shit Dick Tracey.  The only absolute point he made was his point was absolutely pointless.
Does all this mean that you agree that no Rights are absolute?
  
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