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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Drug Legalization (Read 1100 times)
Jeff
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #30 - May 25th, 2017 at 5:54pm
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Don_G wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 2:06pm:
Stupid americans need to do their own homework. You and him will learn something today if you do.
I did my homework regarding the proof of alcoholic beverages when I was in college in the late '60s and early '70s.

Piss off idiot. You are wasting your time here.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #31 - May 25th, 2017 at 7:17pm
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Jeff wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 5:54pm:
I did my homework regarding the proof of alcoholic beverages when I was in college in the late '60s and early '70s.

Piss off idiot. You are wasting your time here.


You're stupid. If you mix 100 proof 50/50 with water you get 25% alcohol. 200 proof is 100%

If you mix 100 proof alcohol 50/50 with water you get 50% alcohol.

Again you get your ass hung out to dry. Now go play in the traffic, for the sake of the gene pool.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #32 - May 25th, 2017 at 8:51pm
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ahhell wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:30am:
I think DnSn107 is arguing from an incorrect premise.  That people are incapable of moderating use of certain "hard stimulants".  While that is probably true of some people just as some people are incapable of moderating use of alcohol, its almost certainly not true of all people.  I also think he/she underrates the negative consequences of prohibition.  Which is that the vast majority of violence associated with the drug trade is a direct consequence of prohibition not the use of the drugs.  And of course the expansion of the police state and erosion of civil rights that have resulted. 

Anyrate, no drug has proven to be worse for society than alcohol, we tried banning it to little reduction in consumption and a vast increase in violent and organized crime.   Would DnSn suggest banning alcohol again? If not why not?  Why doesn't that apply to so called hard stimulants?


I believe it is far more difficult for anyone to moderate their use of hard stimulants than alcohol. Also, I'm referring to the most popular forms of the stimulants in the black market, so it likely wouldn't be the case of they were legalized.

At any rate, I'm trying to argue with an open mind. I need someone to explain why it wouldn't work to ban forms of alcohol which are unable to be consumed without causing a person to become immediately aggressive, and to do the same for all drugs. The strength of the cartels and other violent groups would likely take a hard enough hit that they could no longer function.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #33 - May 25th, 2017 at 9:16pm
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That's where you're wrong.  Keeping drugs illegal strengthens the illegal operators by reducing competition from legitimate producers and importers.  Those who are less willing to engage in violence to product their business.
  
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ahhell
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #34 - May 25th, 2017 at 9:21pm
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Don_G wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 7:17pm:
You're stupid. If you mix 100 proof 50/50 with water you get 25% alcohol. 200 proof is 100%

If you mix 100 proof alcohol 50/50 with water you get 50% alcohol.

Again you get your ass hung out to dry. Now go play in the traffic, for the sake of the gene pool.

Please quote the post where Jeff said 100 proof mixed 50/50 with water produces something other than 50 proof .

I don't suppose there's much point in engaging with a troll though. 


  
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DnSn107
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #35 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:08pm
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Okay, so let's say I'm willing to accept that drug legalization produces more net good than bad on a pragmatic and societal level.

Where I struggle is the level of principles, that is, I don't have any on this subject and I've yet to hear any compelling ones. The Opposition argued that we should compromise rights for reasonability and practicality, but everyone else has suggested that it would not be unreasonable or unpracticable to legalize all drugs. Jeff argued that you should only be accountable for aggressing aginst others or their property, but he then seemed to contradict himself by arguing that reckless endagerment should be punishable.

So does anyone have a consistent underlying principle that they're willing to push forward?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #36 - May 25th, 2017 at 10:48pm
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Jeff wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 7:59am:
I knew that!

Alcohol use lowers inhibitions for most people. It doesn't cause anyone to become angry and violent, it simply dis-inhibits the few people who are already angry and violent. (Far more people who use alcohol seem to become happy, silly and amorous rather than violent...)


You said the violence is a result of the illegality. You were dead wrong.

Yes, there are mid-causes, such as the lowering of inhibition, but the result of alcohol is often violence that would not have occurred without the alcohol, and alcohol is legal.

You're completely right in this post (I just cry and puke when I'm drunk, some people get happy, and the more violent get even more violent) but none of it proves your ridiculous claim that the illegality of drugs is the cause of the violence.

Jeff wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 7:59am:
Alcohol prohibition, like the prohibition of other drugs that people want, leads to illegal production smuggling and distribution of those drugs, which is extremely profitable, because people really want them. This leads to the creation of criminal gangs and gang warfare over territories and profits.


Not when it's enforced. Please actually learn the reason prohibition failed. Everyone was on the take and the lawmakers, wanting to get rich themselves, took to fining the bootleggers, who would casually peel hundreds off their rolls of thousands, pay the fines, and keep making alcohol.

Muslim countries are dry, and they take it seriously. America did not take it seriously on any front. Besides this, gangs don't generally bust into peoples' houses and beat their wives for no reason under the sun. My point about escaping violence by being in an area where drugs and alcohol are illegal is still 100% valid.

Why would there be gangs, anyway? Why would people move to %$#&ing dry areas and deal with skirting the law when they can move and have legal booze at 1/10th the cost? Countrywide prohibition forced people who wanted to drink to choose illegal booze and support gangs. Area selectivity would not create that necessity.

DnSn107 wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Where I struggle is the level of principles, that is, I don't have any on this subject and I've yet to hear any compelling ones. The Opposition argued that we should compromise rights for reasonability and practicality,


If you want principles all drugs should be legal, even the hypothetical last example that always causes aggression.

I didn't really suggest that we should compromise rights for practicality's sake, I just said everyone does it and pointed out that having that last example legal would be completely ruinous. Having crack and PCP legal would probably also be ruinous.

DnSn107 wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:08pm:
but everyone else has suggested that it would not be unreasonable or unpracticable to legalize all drugs. Jeff argued that you should only be accountable for aggressing against others or their property, but he then seemed to contradict himself by arguing that reckless endagerment should be punishable.


I think Jeff is on the right track as far as making mainstream libertarian philosophy fit with not ruining society.

He makes a good point: What can you do when you see someone on that hypothetical last drug charging toward you? Well, you have every reason to believe you're in danger so you can call the police or self-defend.

While this is consistent with mainstream libertarian philosophy, I don't consider it consistent with the ultimate, strictest adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle because I believe that stringent adherence to the NAP means you cannot self-defend.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #37 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:38am
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DnSn107 wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Jeff argued that you should only be accountable for aggressing aginst others or their property, but he then seemed to contradict himself by arguing that reckless endagerment should be punishable.

Reckless endangerment is illegal and punishable. There are lots of ways you could do it, and maybe you could even invent some heretofore unknown form of reckless endangerment. It's a form of aggression very similar to assault.
Drinking a beer as you drive home from work does not amount to reckless endangerment. Driving erratically and repeatedly crossing the center line and running off onto the berm does, even if you only did it because you were texting or distracted by trying to have sex while you drove.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #38 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:43am
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The Opposition wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
You said the violence is a result of the illegality. You were dead wrong.

Yes, there are mid-causes, such as the lowering of inhibition, but the result of alcohol is often violence that would not have occurred without the alcohol, and alcohol is legal.


I saw an ad for a drug named Lyrica last evening. It can be useful in relieving the pain caused by diabetes and the often long term lingering pain resulting from shingles.
Sometimes Lyrica causes people who take it to become psychotic and suicidal, nevertheless, it is legal because the benefits are seen to outweigh the occasional bad result.

Just like alcohol.

Prohibition of drugs causes far more violence than the use of those drugs.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Drug Legalization
Reply #39 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:48am
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The Opposition wrote on May 25th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
Please actually learn the reason prohibition failed. Everyone was on the take and the lawmakers, wanting to get rich themselves, took to fining the bootleggers, who would casually peel hundreds off their rolls of thousands, pay the fines, and keep making alcohol.


Right. Pretty much the exact things that our current prohibition has produced. But you forgot to mention the violence. People being gunned down in the street. The police were/are also often corrupted by it.
  
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