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DnSn107
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A Few Questions for Libertarians
May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm
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Libertarians state that people should not be punished unless they aggress against people or their property. However, I'm hesitant to fully accept that notion. Here are some questions I have about some scenarios where a person is punished but has not aggressed against a person or their property.

1) Should a person be allowed to torture, abuse, or have sex with animals?
2) Should a person be allowed to be nude in public, or should "public decency" be illegal at all, including public drunkenness, public sex, and sawing off your leg in public?
3) Should a person be allowed to contract himself as a slave to another person for the rest of his life?
4) Should a gun salesman be allowed to sell a gun to somebody without first running a background check?
5) Should gun and drug manufacturers be allowed to sell their products to children?
6) Should a person be allowed to sell things without being forced to give a sum of his money to the government (taxes)?
  
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ahhell
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #1 - May 26th, 2017 at 4:04pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Libertarians state that people should not be punished unless they aggress against people or their property. However, I'm hesitant to fully accept that notion. Here are some questions I have about some scenarios where a person is punished but has not aggressed against a person or their property.

1) Should a person be allowed to torture, abuse, or have sex with animals?
2) Should a person be allowed to be nude in public, or should "public decency" be illegal at all, including public drunkenness, public sex, and sawing off your leg in public?
3) Should a person be allowed to contract himself as a slave to another person for the rest of his life?
4) Should a gun salesman be allowed to sell a gun to somebody without first running a background check?
5) Should gun and drug manufacturers be allowed to sell their products to children?
6) Should a person be allowed to sell things without being forced to give a sum of his money to the government (taxes)?
I'll give it a shot.
1.  Sex yes, torture and abuse no.  But I expect wide variation on libertarian thought on this topic. 
2.  I don't have a problem with fines for most of these things.  I don't think jail or other punishments are appropriate.  I think most libertarians would disagree with me.  The exceptions are public drunkenness and sawing of your leg.  Drunkenness shouldn't be illegal.  Sawing of your leg should get you sent to a psychiatric facility even if its against your will.
3.  No
4.  I don't have a problem with background checks, I suspect most libertarians would say that you should be able to buy a gun without one though.
5.  No, children are generally regarded as not mature and its expected that their parents would make decisions about medical care, gun use, ect. 
6.  I think you'll find some disagreement on what constitutes appropriate taxation but libertarians largely agree that taxes are necessary and sales taxes among those that are deemed appropriate.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #2 - May 26th, 2017 at 4:45pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Libertarians state that people should not be punished unless they aggress against people or their property. However, I'm hesitant to fully accept that notion. Here are some questions I have about some scenarios where a person is punished but has not aggressed against a person or their property.

1) Should a person be allowed to torture, abuse, or have sex with animals?
If you can't figure that out without help, you are a barbarian, and probably not very smart. (Although consensual sex with cute young lambs is OK... as long as you can prove they consented and it wasn't rape!) Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy)
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #3 - May 26th, 2017 at 4:45pm
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So Ahhell, would you consider yourself an adherent of the non-aggression principle?

Also to add another:
7) Should all pollution be illegal?
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #4 - May 26th, 2017 at 4:54pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 4:45pm:
If you can't figure that out without help, you are a barbarian, and probably not very smart. (Although consensual sex with cute young lambs is OK... as long as you can prove they consented and it wasn't rape!) Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy)


The answer is easy from a moral perspective, and I'd hope the same goes for all the questions I presented. However, I'm not asking from a moral perspective, I'm asking from a legal perspective. If a person believes that government laws should be restricted to aggression against another person or his property, animal abuse/torture/sex would not fit within that description.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #5 - May 26th, 2017 at 5:25pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 4:45pm:
7) Should all pollution be illegal?
Another incredibly naive (or stupid) question. If you neighbor pollutes you well, your drinking water, should it be illegal?

If I don't have a catalytic converter on my barbecue grill in the Ozarks... am I polluting?

To ask something like "Should all pollution be illegal" you first have to define "pollution".

Is a herd of buffalo standing in a 'wetland' and shitting and pissing to beat the band, right into the watershed, the low swampy "navigable waters of the U.S." polluting our water? If you live right downstream and use the water out of the creek for drinking, yes, they are, and it should be "illegal".

Am I right?
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #6 - May 26th, 2017 at 5:27pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 4:54pm:
The answer is easy from a moral perspective, and I'd hope the same goes for all the questions I presented. However, I'm not asking from a moral perspective, I'm asking from a legal perspective.

Yes. In every state of the union, torture, abuse and sex with animals is illegal. It's hard to imagine you didn't know that... Were you raised by barbarians?
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #7 - May 26th, 2017 at 5:28pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 5:25pm:
Another incredibly naive (or stupid) question. If you neighbor pollutes you well, your drinking water, should it be illegal?

If I don't have a catalytic converter on my barbecue grill in the Ozarks... am I polluting?

To ask something like "Should all pollution be illegal" you first have to define "pollution".

Is a herd of buffalo standing in a 'wetland' and shitting and pissing to beat the band, right into the watershed, the low swampy "navigable waters of the U.S." polluting our water? If you live right downstream and use the water out of the creek for drinking, yes, they are, and it should be "illegal".

Am I right?


I meant air pollution.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #8 - May 26th, 2017 at 5:35pm
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Jeff, I think you're failing to understand the purpose of the thread. I'm not asking these questions because I have mixed feelings about all these things. I'm trying to point out inconsistencies with the NAP and I'm trying to push adherents to that ideology to explain how (unless they think all these things should be legal) the NAP is a good, consistent principle.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #9 - May 26th, 2017 at 5:40pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 5:27pm:
Yes. In every state of the union, torture, abuse and sex with animals is illegal. It's hard to imagine you didn't know that... Were you raised by barbarians?


Yes I was, but let's not get into that. I'm not asking if it is illegal, I'm asking if it should be according to the NAP.
  
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