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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #20 - May 26th, 2017 at 6:41pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:18pm:
You never heard of any Natural Rights theory? Really?

My recommendation for you would be to talk more to classical liberals and less to libertarians who are "adamant" about the NAP.

Hopefully, someone in your early childhood taught you it was wrong to hit the other kiddies or take their toys... No? Nobody did? That's why you can't figure out the NAP?


I have heard of it but I'm admittedly not super familiar with it. You have to forgive me as I'm only a teenager, I remember breifly learning it some years ago. I remember the concept of Godgiven rights and John Locke and Gallagher, but I'll have to better familiarize myself with the subject sometime soon.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever met someone (not online) who identifies as a classic liberal.

I'm sure I was taught not to hurt kids or take their toys, but I don't remember, it was a long time ago. I can figure out the NAP, I'm simply trying to explain why it seems incorrect to me. I'm not sure what led you to believe I don't understand it.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #21 - May 26th, 2017 at 6:42pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:25pm:
Right. You pollute my well water and I'll make you pay. It's cheap and easy to have my water tested these days in America (Thanks free market!) so if I find pesticides at harmful levels in my well water, you will regret it you asshole farmer! I'll make sure you never produce any more food for anyone, ever!


Yes, that's exactly my point! I'm arguing that if the NAP were taken to its logical extreme, that is how it would work, which is why the NAP seems wrong to me.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #22 - May 26th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:27pm:
It never applied to you crappity smacking your own lamb?
No matter, you should still be discrete, most states will arrest and prosecute you if you get caught crappity smacking any lamb... Go figure.


Correct, it doesn't, which is a reason I take problem with it. Under it, lambs are property, and have no more legal rights than your pillow.

And you're right that I would be arrested. I don't think that anyone believes the United States government currently adheres to the NAP, I'm simply arguing that I don't believe it is viable for it to. And I'm not talking about "any lamb", I'm talking about your lamb, otherwise your aggressing against someone else's property.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #23 - May 26th, 2017 at 6:50pm
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Jeff wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:30pm:
Lets move on to question #2...

Once again , what do you think asshole?


Two down, five to go. Wink

I'm not sure, my preexisting biases and morals lead me to prefer for it be illegal. But I know those are both irrelevant to whether or not it should be. It could be argued that it is protected under the First Amendment. But as far as the purpose of this thread goes, it would be protected under the NAP.
  
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #24 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:14pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 5:35pm:
Jeff, I think you're failing to understand the purpose of the thread. I'm not asking these questions because I have mixed feelings about all these things. I'm trying to point out inconsistencies with the NAP and I'm trying to push adherents to that ideology to explain how (unless they think all these things should be legal) the NAP is a good, consistent principle.

What is your alternative "good and consistent principle"? 
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #25 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:21pm
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ahhell wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 7:14pm:
What is your alternative "good and consistent principle"? 


Unfortunately, I don't have one. But I don't believe the NAP is it. I'm always open to suggestions though.
  
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #26 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:27pm
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 7:21pm:
Unfortunately, I don't have one. But I don't believe the NAP is it. I'm always open to suggestions though.
So you're asking more of libertarians and the NAP that you can provide otherwise.  I'd say if you don't have better principle to live by then perhaps you should adopt the NAP.

Personally, I don't think there is a perfectly or even nearly perferctly consistent and universal moral principle.  I think you are asking the impossible of the NAP.   

I adhere to the NAP in as much as I think its a good general principle.  Without a compelling reason to use some other guide, use the NAP.
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #27 - May 26th, 2017 at 7:29pm
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ahhell wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 7:27pm:
So you're asking more of libertarians and the NAP that you can provide otherwise.  I'd say if you don't have better principle to live by the perhaps you should adopt the NAP.

Personally, I don't think there is a perfectly or even nearly perferctly consistent and universal moral principle.  I think you are asking the impossible of the NAP.   


I think you're right. Even though I see flaws in the NAP, most of my political beliefs are at least influenced by it. The stuff I brought up in this thread were pretty much the only exceptions.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #28 - May 27th, 2017 at 7:29am
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:41pm:
I have heard of it but I'm admittedly not super familiar with it. You have to forgive me as I'm only a teenager, I remember breifly learning it some years ago. I remember the concept of Godgiven rights and John Locke and Gallagher, but I'll have to better familiarize myself with the subject sometime soon.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever met someone (not online) who identifies as a classic liberal.

I'm sure I was taught not to hurt kids or take their toys, but I don't remember, it was a long time ago. I can figure out the NAP, I'm simply trying to explain why it seems incorrect to me. I'm not sure what led you to believe I don't understand it.
When I was 15, I read the Declaration of Independence, the U.C. Constitution and George Washington's Farewell Address.

Although it didn't know it at the time, these three relatively short documents are a good introduction to and overview of the theories of natural Rights that underlie the system of government America is supposed to have.

If there are parts that are confusing to you, read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-federalist Papers.

In the meantime, don't hit anyone unless they hit you first. Don't take other people's stuff.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #29 - May 27th, 2017 at 7:32am
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DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 6:42pm:
Yes, that's exactly my point! I'm arguing that if the NAP were taken to its logical extreme, that is how it would work, which is why the NAP seems wrong to me.
This is in fact how the common law is supposed to work. Polluting my water is a civil wrong, a tort. The common law holds people responsible for wrongs they do to others. It is neither extreme or arbitrary because it relies on hundreds of years of precedent and a requirement that the restitution fit the wrong.
  
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