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The Opposition
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #30 - May 27th, 2017 at 12:34pm
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I'm going to answer by the purest libertarianism. The vast majority of libertarians make compromises.

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
1) Should a person be allowed to torture, abuse, or have sex with animals?


Yes, if the animals are their property. The real question here is if animals are property.

Honestly I don't think they are. We already have children, who are sort-of-property, having some rights and not others. I think it's not against libertarianism to say animals reside here as well.

But there is still the question of who sues. The purest libertarians believe in civil law only. No damages, no crime. So who sues when Billy tortures his cat to death? Nobody. Nobody competent to sue and damaged by this exists. (Yes, this also means many murders may go unpunished. If no surviving wife and children exist, for example, no damage = no suit.)

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Q2) Should a person be allowed to be nude in public, or should "public decency" be illegal at all, including public drunkenness, public sex, and sawing off your leg in public?


All legal. You can forget me going on the subway in such a world. I'm not going to risk other peoples' ding-a-lings brushing me "unintentionally".

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
3) Should a person be allowed to contract himself as a slave to another person for the rest of his life?


Yes but the master would be a fool to sign it. The "slave" at all times has the right to breach contract. So he can sign such a contract, and if he wishes, walk away. He may be subject to whatever penalties are expressed in the contract but if not explicitly stated, and if the master has already paid, the slave may walk away and leave the master holding the bag.

Remember this at all times:
human rights > contract rights

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
4) Should a gun salesman be allowed to sell a gun to somebody without first running a background check?


Yes.

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
5) Should gun and drug manufacturers be allowed to sell their products to children?


Yes. And the parents retain the right to take those drugs away.

Children sort of break libertarianism and I'll explain exactly how. They're people, but they don't yet have full human rights. This means that if you're a child, and you have a shiny dime, you can use it to buy whatever you like, but since you can't actually contract, it's not just that your parent can take it away - all adult rights supersede yours provided the adult is not violating more basic rights. So you can use your dime to buy a sweetdrop, and the shop owner is free not to give it to you because you don't have the right to contract.

DnSn107 wrote on May 26th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
6) Should a person be allowed to sell things without being forced to give a sum of his money to the government (taxes)?


Yes.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #31 - May 27th, 2017 at 2:17pm
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'Progressives' state that people should not be punished. However, I'm hesitant to fully accept that notion. Here are some questions I have about some scenarios where a person has aggressed against a person or their property.

1) Should a person be allowed to torture, abuse, or have sex with animals?
2) Should a person be allowed to be nude in public, or should "public decency" be illegal at all, including public drunkenness, public sex, and sawing off your leg in public?
3) Should a person be allowed to contract himself as a slave to another person for the rest of his life?
4) Should a gun salesman be allowed to sell a gun to somebody without first running a background check?
5) Should gun and drug manufacturers be allowed to sell their products to children?
6) Should a person be allowed to sell things without being forced to give a sum of his money to the government (taxes)?

I ask because I'm trying to understand 'progressivism'.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #32 - May 27th, 2017 at 2:20pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 12:34pm:
I'm going to answer by the purest libertarianism. The vast majority of libertarians make compromises.


Yes, if the animals are their property. The real question here is if animals are property.


I suppose the "compromise" position is yes, animals are property because the alternative is so bad?

When did you suddenly become so conversant in libertarian theory that you can "answer by the purest libertarianism"?
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #33 - May 27th, 2017 at 2:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 12:34pm:
All legal. You can forget me going on the subway in such a world. I'm not going to risk other peoples' ding-a-lings brushing me "unintentionally".
Many people, libertarians or not, find public sex offensive... But you think that "pure" libertarians simply have no consideration at all for other people? Anyway, "legal" it is not.

Where your concept of liberty still fails is that you haven't accepted that liberty is impossible without responsibility.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #34 - May 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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Jeff wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
Many people, libertarians or not, find public sex offensive... But you think that "pure" libertarians simply have no consideration at all for other people? Anyway, "legal" it is not.

Where your concept of liberty still fails is that you haven't accepted that liberty is impossible without responsibility.


You fine folks at the Libertarians Forum divested me of that notion; that rights or freedoms are somehow bought with responsibility. Rights are inherent, regardless of the person they're vested in will use them to the end of others' destruction.

The most law-abiding, perfect person in the world and the nine-times-convicted felon are exactly equal in rights.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #35 - May 28th, 2017 at 7:28am
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The Opposition wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm:
You fine folks at the Libertarians Forum divested me of that notion; that rights or freedoms are somehow bought with responsibility. Rights are inherent, regardless of the person they're vested in will use them to the end of others' destruction.

The most law-abiding, perfect person in the world and the nine-times-convicted felon are exactly equal in rights.
Yes, Rights are inherent, but there are things you can do that will (and should) result in your Rights being restricted or denied. Like murdering people or committing violent felonies.

It's Liberty that requires responsibility. If you are irresponsible and don't respect the Rights of others, you might end up in prison...

That's just on an individual level. If people in a community are generally irresponsible and don't respect the Rights of others, it's impossible to have a free and prosperous community.
  
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Don_G
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #36 - May 28th, 2017 at 11:32am
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Jeff wrote on May 28th, 2017 at 7:28am:
Yes, Rights are inherent, but there are things you can do that will (and should) result in your Rights being restricted or denied. Like murdering people or committing violent felonies.

It's Liberty that requires responsibility. If you are irresponsible and don't respect the Rights of others, you might end up in prison...

That's just on an individual level. If people in a community are generally irresponsible and don't respect the Rights of others, it's impossible to have a free and prosperous community.


You're learning slowly. Very slowly. But it's obvious that what I've said is being registered in your brain and then being brought out a week or two later as your own ideas.

In this case you've learned that rights aren't absolute. When you make some room in your brain there is more for you to learn!
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #37 - May 28th, 2017 at 3:58pm
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Don_G wrote on May 28th, 2017 at 11:32am:
You're learning slowly. Very slowly. But it's obvious that what I've said is being registered in your brain and then being brought out a week or two later as your own ideas.

In this case you've learned that rights aren't absolute. When you make some room in your brain there is more for you to learn!

In fact, I can't make any sense of most everything you say, and I have said numerous times on this forum (before you were here) that I've most likely never had an original thought in my life. I'm OK with that. Its common with us humans. What I have done is learned a lot about the original ideas of lots of real geniuses.

I have not "learned from you that Rights are not absolute." I knew that by 1965 at least.

Rights are inherent, but violating the Rights of others is just cause to restrict your Rights, or deny them, or hang you. Smiley
  
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DnSn107
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #38 - May 28th, 2017 at 8:45pm
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Jeff wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 7:29am:
When I was 15, I read the Declaration of Independence, the U.C. Constitution and George Washington's Farewell Address.

Although it didn't know it at the time, these three relatively short documents are a good introduction to and overview of the theories of natural Rights that underlie the system of government America is supposed to have.

If there are parts that are confusing to you, read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-federalist Papers.


I read the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in class long ago, and I've read the Constitution a few times since then. I've never read George Washington's Farewell Address, but I've heard about it. All I remember learning is him warning about the dangers of political parties and him saying U.S. should have free trade and no entangling alliances.

I've never read the Federalist or Anti-Federalist Papers, I've only learned about them.

But I will read all these things you've said to read.
  
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #39 - May 28th, 2017 at 8:59pm
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Jeff wrote on May 27th, 2017 at 2:24pm:
Many people, libertarians or not, find public sex offensive... But you think that "pure" libertarians simply have no consideration at all for other people? Anyway, "legal" it is not.

Where your concept of liberty still fails is that you haven't accepted that liberty is impossible without responsibility.


But Libertarians would argue that your right to free speech and expression is more important than offending people. Advertising neo-Nazi ideals in public would offend many people, Libertarian or not, but that isn't a reason for it to be illegal. He's not saying Libertarians have no consideration for people, he's saying that the law doesn't. The law doesn't care about people's feelings or what offends them. And he wasn't saying it is legal, he was saying it would be legal according to the purest form of Libertarianism.
  
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