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kaz
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #50 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 12:03pm
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 11:23am:
It would be helpful if we all read what 'Mr. Libertarian', Murray Rothbard had to say on the subject before continuing.

https://mises.org/library/children-and-rights

https://mises.org/library/rights-animals

I cite this work not to end debate but to give it some grounding in the libertarian canon.


Rothbard is an anarchist.  Of course he opposes animal government protection, he opposes government.  I for one will stipulate to that anarchists oppose government protection for animals.

Also, that post really just talks about animals in the abstract, meaning he combines eating and torturing them and whether he considers them to have rights.  He doesn't really discuss directly torturing animals and how you can combat that without government. 

I for one am interested in an actually thought through method that good men can get a bunch of rednecks who don't give a snail about us to stop training dogs to tear each other to death.  Then again, I'll take an intellectually rational discussion from an anarchist on any subject.

These links only loosely pertain to the discussion.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #51 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:00pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 12:03pm:
I for one will stipulate to that anarchists oppose government protection for animals.

Well, yeah...

Anarchists oppose protecting people... Why wouldn't they?

If people are not defended, anarchists can do what they want with them...

Are you aware of what anarchists actually do to people when they are not restrained?
  
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #52 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:15pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 12:03pm:
Also, that post really just talks about animals in the abstract, meaning he combines eating and torturing them and whether he considers them to have rights.  He doesn't really discuss directly torturing animals and how you can combat that without government.

Are you are an atheist?

If so, what is pain, but a programmed reaction to specific inputs?

What is pain but a calculator meat of meat outputting electrical pulses?

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I for one am interested in an actually thought through method that good men can get a bunch of rednecks who don't give a snail about us to stop training dogs to tear each other to death.

Isn't that just training dogs to do what their ancient wolf ancestors did naturally?

Perhaps training domesticated to kill each other is just bringing out their true nature.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #53 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 9:44pm
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Quote:
No other animals or beings possess this ability to reason,


Quote:
to make conscious choices,


Quote:
to transform their environment in order to prosper,


1. Ravens

2. Apes

3. Beavers

Poof.

Rothbard, shut up. You know plenty about libertarian theory. Less about what animals can and cannot do.

The libertarian canon in this case is based upon Rothbard's incorrect opinions about animals, not the solid groundwork he laid down about rights. In fact, he's contradicting it.

Rights don't even come from the ability to reason or make choices, otherwise we could strip rights from the sufficiently stupid. Everything that man just said, however little it applies to non-human animals, applies perfectly to the druggo, the drunk, the scratch ticket connoisseur, and any unmentionable throngs of man who have given up reason for impulse, or perhaps never learnt to reason to begin with. Is that what you want, Rothbard? For these people to be butchered for food by anyone who wants them? Heck, I [h]ate these sorts of people. I would easily have some for dinner.

The only good case for animals being incompatible with human rights is that they're not humans. In other words, any given species which has a concept of rights does not have an obligation to extend them to other species.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #54 - Jun 8th, 2017 at 10:03pm
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Are you are an atheist?


You know what's sad? Aside from you and Jeff, I'm probably the most religious person here.

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If so, what is pain, but a programmed reaction to specific inputs?

What is pain but a calculator made of meat outputting electrical pulses?


When you're like me and you start to see yourself this way, it's not fun. We only see ourselves, and eachother (because we all know it'd be dumb to say one human was more and all the others were just meat) as something more than meat robots because understanding our nature as blobs of chemicals and electrical impulses displeases us, so we create a fantasy.

Some choose to limit the fantasy to man and some choose to extend it to animals. It's all the same bullshit.

Quote:
Isn't that just training dogs to do what their ancient wolf ancestors did naturally?

Perhaps training domesticated to kill each other is just bringing out their true nature.


Am I really so bad because I don't understand what the big deal is? Especially the chicken thing. I've owned chickens. I've owned male chickens. Male chickens are not nice guys. They want to fight. They'll even attack their owner as soon as eachother.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #55 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:59pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 10:03pm:
You know what's sad? Aside from you and Jeff, I'm probably the most religious person here.


I'm not religious. I've never been religious. I've made that abundantly clear.
  
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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #56 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 5:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 8th, 2017 at 10:03pm:
Am I really so bad because I don't understand what the big deal is? Especially the chicken thing.
Your evil, as all real evil, comes with understanding. You know it's wrong, but you applaud it. That's what makes you evil.

People who don't know any better can cause great harm, but ignorance is some excuse... You are not ignorant. You just prefer evil. It's your informed and conscious choice.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #57 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 5:02pm:
Your evil, as all real evil, comes with understanding. You know it's wrong, but you applaud it. That's what makes you evil.

People who don't know any better can cause great harm, but ignorance is some excuse... You are not ignorant. You just prefer evil. It's your informed and conscious choice.


So what should I do when my own damn chickens have it out with each other? Stop them from doing what comes naturally?
  

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Jeff
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #58 - Jun 10th, 2017 at 6:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:02pm:
So what should I do when my own damn chickens have it out with each other? Stop them from doing what comes naturally?
Let them kill each other if you want to, but that raises the question of why you are keeping chickens in the first place.
  
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merkelstan
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Re: A Few Questions for Libertarians
Reply #59 - Jun 10th, 2017 at 7:34am
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Yeah there's a view that rights are not inherent to humanity but to sentient beings, specifically those capable of developing the consciousness of rights.

In practice, we tend to punish those who do not demonstrate this consciousness with jail terms and fines.

  
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