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Jeff
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #10 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 7:54am
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 6:10am:
While you have made some points that are true, this thread is about Russian "threats" and international politics, not comparative levels of individual liberty or the respective court systems etc. 

So let me reflect on some things that I don't see Putin's Russia doing.


I don't see Putin's Russia interfering with foreign elections.

I don't see Putin's Russia explicitly threatening to nuke other countries like the US does.

I don't see Putin's Russia implementing food blockades and economic sanctions on other countries which kill hundreds of thousands of children.

I don't see Putin's Russia maintaining a globe-spanning fleet of 20 aircraft carriers (11 super carriers) and support ships capable of engaging multiple countries at once.

I don't see Putin's Russia occupying 63 foreign countries with 700-800 military bases and installations holding a quarter of a million men-at-arms.

I don't see Putin's Russia putting anti-ballistic missile systems designed to enable a first-nuke-strike in territories bordering the US like the US does to Russia.

I don't see Putin's Russia engineering coup d'etats in countries neighboring the US - or anywhere else, for that matter.

I don't see Putin's Russia arming terrorists in other countries with a billion dollars of weaponry yearly.

I don't see Putin's Russia spraying foreign nations with hundreds of tons of atomized depleted uranium (nuclear waste with a half-life of billions of years), cursing generations of foreign children with horrific birth defects.

I don't see Putin's Russia murdering individuals (with over 90% collateral damage) in scores of other countries with drone strikes.

I don't see Putin's Russia engineering false-flag sarin nerve gas attacks in other countries.

I don't see Putin's Russia explicitly making a policy of allowing torture of prisoners of war.

I don't see Putin's Russia using their army to defend millions of acres of foreign poppy fields, supporting drug lords and international narco-terrorism while running airlifts to import the drugs into their own country.

I don't see Putin's Russia tapping the internet backbones and phone networks to scoop-up all of the planet's transmissions.

And I don't see Putin's Russia forcing computer manufacturers to implement hardware-backdoors in everything from cpus to routers to hard drives and more.

In summary: Calling Putin's Russia out for lack of internal freedoms is a diversionary tactic from the topic at-hand.  Their military budget is absolutely puny compared to that of the USA and Putin's affronts, intimidation, threats and assaults on other sovereign nations are so miniscule compared to those of the USA that only a completely brainwashed, duped, jingoistic flag-waver would ever think of comparing the two.

Matthew 7:3-5
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

It looks like the Europeans are going to take things in hand over there , so no one will have to worry about Russia anymore anyway. Wink
  
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Don_G
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #11 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:28pm
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 6:10am:
While you have made some points that are true, this thread is about Russian "threats" and international politics, not comparative levels of individual liberty or the respective court systems etc. 

So let me reflect on some things that I don't see Putin's Russia doing.


I don't see Putin's Russia interfering with foreign elections.

I don't see Putin's Russia explicitly threatening to nuke other countries like the US does.

I don't see Putin's Russia implementing food blockades and economic sanctions on other countries which kill hundreds of thousands of children.

I don't see Putin's Russia maintaining a globe-spanning fleet of 20 aircraft carriers (11 super carriers) and support ships capable of engaging multiple countries at once.

I don't see Putin's Russia occupying 63 foreign countries with 700-800 military bases and installations holding a quarter of a million men-at-arms.

I don't see Putin's Russia putting anti-ballistic missile systems designed to enable a first-nuke-strike in territories bordering the US like the US does to Russia.

I don't see Putin's Russia engineering coup d'etats in countries neighboring the US - or anywhere else, for that matter.

I don't see Putin's Russia arming terrorists in other countries with a billion dollars of weaponry yearly.

I don't see Putin's Russia spraying foreign nations with hundreds of tons of atomized depleted uranium (nuclear waste with a half-life of billions of years), cursing generations of foreign children with horrific birth defects.

I don't see Putin's Russia murdering individuals (with over 90% collateral damage) in scores of other countries with drone strikes.

I don't see Putin's Russia engineering false-flag sarin nerve gas attacks in other countries.

I don't see Putin's Russia explicitly making a policy of allowing torture of prisoners of war.

I don't see Putin's Russia using their army to defend millions of acres of foreign poppy fields, supporting drug lords and international narco-terrorism while running airlifts to import the drugs into their own country.

I don't see Putin's Russia tapping the internet backbones and phone networks to scoop-up all of the planet's transmissions.

And I don't see Putin's Russia forcing computer manufacturers to implement hardware-backdoors in everything from cpus to routers to hard drives and more.

In summary: Calling Putin's Russia out for lack of internal freedoms is a diversionary tactic from the topic at-hand.  Their military budget is absolutely puny compared to that of the USA and Putin's affronts, intimidation, threats and assaults on other sovereign nations are so miniscule compared to those of the USA that only a completely brainwashed, duped, jingoistic flag-waver would ever think of comparing the two.

Matthew 7:3-5
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


If that's yours then I have to commend you for some tuned in thinking!

The message is starting to get out there now so maybe Trump's phoniness on better relations with Russia can have a positive effect. Even though he's run away from any hint of it since his campaign speeches.

60% of Americans believe the propaganda about Russia being an enemy. But it's very positive and progressive to know that 40% don't believe it!

The best thing that could happen to stop US momentum is if Europe truly does start to withdraw from Nato. As Merkel hinted when she talked about Europe looking after itself.

Keeping in mind, Nato is nothing but a tood of the US and to deny the US that tool would be a very good thing for world peace.
  
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kunstler
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #12 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:43pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:28pm:
If that's yours then I have to commend you for some tuned in thinking!

The message is starting to get out there now so maybe Trump's phoniness on better relations with Russia can have a positive effect. Even though he's run away from any hint of it since his campaign speeches.

60% of Americans believe the propaganda about Russia being an enemy. But it's very positive and progressive to know that 40% don't believe it!

The best thing that could happen to stop US momentum is if Europe truly does start to withdraw from Nato. As Merkel hinted when she talked about Europe looking after itself.

Keeping in mind, Nato is nothing but a tood of the US and to deny the US that tool would be a very good thing for world peace.


I have often wanted to get out of NATO like Ireland. It seems I am a north american and don't like being connected to Europe at the butt through NATO and lack that initiative to actually want to control other nations, which seem fairly foreign to me.  I can only guess and wonder at what actual American people want to invade other lands and how they are led to do so, brainwashed for example, and who is pulling their strings. I myself and content enough to live in the USA where I was born without even thinking about people overseas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bThaR3A3Xc
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #13 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:53pm
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kunstler wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:43pm:
I have often wanted to get out of NATO like Ireland. It seems I am a north american and don't like being connected to Europe at the butt through NATO and lack that initiative to actually want to control other nations, which seem fairly foreign to me.  I can only guess and wonder at what actual American people want to invade other lands and how they are led to do so, brainwashed for example, and who is pulling their strings. I myself and content enough to live in the USA where I was born without even thinking about people overseas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bThaR3A3Xc


First of all reread my post because I've just finished modifying it in order to expand the debate.

And you're right to want to get your country out of Nato. But in order to make it happen it's also necessary to have a full understanding of why the US invented Nato to begin with and what it uses Nato to gain the US. I think it's unfortunate that many Americans are only looking at the cost of Nato and that is because that's the aspect that was promoted by Trump.

With Merkel's recent comments, it appears that the jig is up finally. But now the real selling of Nato will begin and it's likely that Trump will be a big part of it.
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #14 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:00pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 12:53pm:
First of all reread my post because I've just finished modifying it in order to expand the debate.

And you're right to want to get your country out of Nato. But in order to make it happen it's also necessary to have a full understanding of why the US invented Nato to begin with and what it uses Nato to gain the US. I think it's unfortunate that many Americans are only looking at the cost of Nato and that is because that's the aspect that was promoted by Trump.

With Merkel's recent comments, it appears that the jig is up finally. But now the real selling of Nato will begin and it's likely that Trump will be a big part of it.


I wanted things that Trump talked about before Trump ever became a candidate. I wanted out of NATO a long time ago, when I realized they it was basically an out of control entity that bombed other lands with Depleted Uranium. I've rarely encountered anyone who worried about Depleted Uranium munitions, but NATO used them in Serbia, Lybia, Iraq, etc, either under Republicans or Democrats. No one seems worried that this is like soft-nuking other lands.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/us-depleted-uranium-as-ma_b_381288...
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #15 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:13pm
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It's worthwhile to note that this liberal news site only mentions Iraq and Gulf wars. The writer left out anything like Serbia, where liberals have used depleted Uranium. Serbia still recovers from Bill Clinton's uranium frenzy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/us-depleted-uranium-as-ma_b_381288...
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #16 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:17pm
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kunstler wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:00pm:
I wanted things that Trump talked about before Trump ever became a candidate. I wanted out of NATO a long time ago, when I realized they it was basically an out of control entity that bombed other lands with Depleted Uranium. I've rarely encountered anyone who worried about Depleted Uranium munitions, but NATO used them in Serbia, Lybia, Iraq, etc, either under Republicans or Democrats. No one seems worried that this is like soft-nuking other lands.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/us-depleted-uranium-as-ma_b_381288...


Of course you wanted things that Trump talked about before he became a candidate. So did the majority of Americans! And enough Americans believed Trump would bring those things he promised.

I wouldn't rely on the depleted uranium argument. It's unreliable and it's not attributable to Nato exclusively. There are many much more valid arguments to make against Nato.

But Americans have to be selective and cautious on their condemnation of Nato. Never forget, Nato is a tool of the US and it's advantages for the US will be the counter-argument.

More on that later if you show you are capable of expanding this conversation. Let's also wait for Jeff to get involved because he will make my argument for me. He's not understanding the issue of Nato and that can be proven.
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #17 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:20pm
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kunstler wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:13pm:
It's worthwhile to note that this liberal news site only mentions Iraq and Gulf wars. The writer left out anything like Serbia, where liberals have used depleted Uranium. Serbia still recovers from Bill Clinton's uranium frenzy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/us-depleted-uranium-as-ma_b_381288...


A valid point on the Kosovo war and the Democrats culpability in that phony war. But no sympathy for the depleted uranium cause. There are many better points to pursue.
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #18 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 2:25pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 1st, 2017 at 1:17pm:
Of course you wanted things that Trump talked about before he became a candidate. So did the majority of Americans! And enough Americans believed Trump would bring those things he promised.

I wouldn't rely on the depleted uranium argument. It's unreliable and it's not attributable to Nato exclusively. There are many much more valid arguments to make against Nato.

But Americans have to be selective and cautious on their condemnation of Nato. Never forget, Nato is a tool of the US and it's advantages for the US will be the counter-argument.

More on that later if you show you are capable of expanding this conversation. Let's also wait for Jeff to get involved because he will make my argument for me. He's not understanding the issue of Nato and that can be proven.


I didn't vote for trump. I voted for a 3rd party candidate. Yes, I received flack from Democrats in the northeast I talked to, but they were mostly teeny-bopper millennials who had no memory of Bush. Trump was the first bad guy president they had ever encountered, but for me being 38 I remember Bush all to clear and the trick they played on me that time to vote for Democrats. 

NATO simply doesnt represent my interests as a schitkicking local American not part of whatever suit wearing elite that wants to play big games abroad and expand America abroad.

“fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”  --George Bush
  
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Re: Stop Inventing Fictional Threats From Russia!
Reply #19 - Jun 1st, 2017 at 4:33pm
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Wow! Did somebody say something you guys really want to make disappear? I'm going to back and see if I can figure out what set you off... It must have been really good. Smiley
  
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