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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible (Read 325 times)
Jeff
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #20 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:42pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:22pm:
I'M NOT AN ANARCHIST
Yeah, I know, crappity smack him, he thinks the slightest deviation from complete tyranny is anarchic.
  
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kaz
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #21 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:42pm:
Yeah, I know, crappity smack him, he thinks the slightest deviation from complete tyranny is anarchic.


Interesting view from a big government liberal like Oppressive ...
  

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The Opposition
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #22 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 6:09pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:03pm:
Yes, it was my point, that the NAP when interpreted strictly is non-functional in that it does not preserve those who adhere to it.

Riddle me this: If you think a person threatening you or harming you has voided his rights in some way, why not have the penalty for every crime be death? Why not use cruel and unusual punishment? Why are there laws against?

Speaking in a libertarian sense, once someone has aggressed, if they lose their own rights, why is it still wrong to do certain things to them?

If aggressors retain some rights, but not others, who decides which ones and how? If they retain no rights, is it then perfectly fine to rape them to death in punishment? And if they retain all rights, including freedom, how do you justify punishing them at all, such as putting them into a cell for instance?


What part of this post is only addressing anarchy?

When you shoot somebody, do you still have rights and are they still inviolable? Simple question.

If you don't believe the NAP is perfect then I have no quarrel with you.

Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:42pm:
Yeah, I know, crappity smack him, he thinks the slightest deviation from complete tyranny is anarchic.


You've got it backwards. I think the slightest deviation from perfect, inviolable rights is tyranny.

You're the people who shoved the NAP down my throat. I still follow it - I don't even call the police when my life is in danger because it represents a use of stolen tax money and force on my part - but I can tell you what I think about it.
  

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Jeff
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #23 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 6:54pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
You've got it backwards. I think the slightest deviation from perfect, inviolable rights is tyranny.

My points are proved.
  
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Don_G
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #24 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 1:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 6th, 2017 at 11:00pm:
No one can ever have a right to harm someone who is not using initiatory force - aggression - against another.

Yet there is supposedly a positive right to self-defend when one is being threatened.

If the person threatening us is an innocent - perhaps he's the carrier of some horrible, deadly disease - the NAP says we can't hurt him. If he wants to move in next door, he can do so. The best we can do is sue him if we catch his ailment. The trouble is, the disease is Ebola. No one's going to be left to sue.

Another way we could be threatened by an innocent is if we are female and carrying a pregnancy which threatens our life. As long as we assume the pro-life stance - that it is a person, with rights - we cannot remove it even to save our lives because the fetus does not aggress.

Self-defence is incompatible with the NAP in yet an additional way; it allows for the preemptive defence of the self against someone merely posing a credible threat, like someone pointing a loaded gun at you. The trouble with this is: If you don't let him shoot, because you attack first and prevent him from shooting, you're the aggressor. You used force. He didn't. You initiated force. End of story.

There's no two ways about this.

Yes, I'm aware some libertarian philosophers have posited that threats of force are force. This is simply not the case any more than my threatening to eat your food causes it to appear inside my belly. Attempting to define something that does not use force as force is dishonest and contributes to the decay of language.

Words mean things, and one cannot define threatening to do something as doing that thing. (Unless it already qualifies, like threatening to make a threat.)


Well said! But you could have saved yourself so many words by just stating that in the US, non-problems will be made into big problems.

No other modern and civilized country is trying to sort this problem out in order to try to prevent the vicious murdering of their fellow citizens.

Who are incidentally, mostly black men that the white gungoons fear.
  
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kaz
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #25 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 8:40am
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Don_G wrote on Jun 13th, 2017 at 1:08am:
Well said! But you could have saved yourself so many words by just stating that in the US, non-problems will be made into big problems.

No other modern and civilized country is trying to sort this problem out in order to try to prevent the vicious murdering of their fellow citizens.

Who are incidentally, mostly black men that the white gungoons fear.


For flaming racists like you, it always comes back to color, doesn't it?  Some darkie moving into your neighborhood knows what they're about to get, don't they Grand Wizard?  The tree in your front yard's been the end of more than one negro ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #26 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 9:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
When you shoot somebody, do you still have rights and are they still inviolable? Simple question.

Your question is in fact too simple, and because of that a stupid question.

If it is proven that you murdered someone, you have no more rights at all. You forfeit them.

If you shoot someone accidentally you will be held liable and may in fact be imprisoned.

If you shoot someone in self defense, your rights are preserved.
  
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Don_G
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #27 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 12:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 13th, 2017 at 9:05am:
Your question is in fact too simple, and because of that a stupid question.

If it is proven that you murdered someone, you have no more rights at all. You forfeit them.

If you shoot someone accidentally you will be held liable and may in fact be imprisoned.

If you shoot someone in self defense, your rights are preserved.


Very wrong and flawed thinking but you don't want to know why so I won't waste my time telling you.

You Americans are so stuck in your ways that you are incapable of learning any truths from the rest of the world's people.
  
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kaz
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #28 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 13th, 2017 at 12:52pm:
Very wrong and flawed thinking but you don't want to know why so I won't waste my time telling you.

You Americans are so stuck in your ways that you are incapable of learning any truths from the rest of the world's people.


That explains a lot, doesn't it?  You look at the most powerful, wealthy nation on the planet and tell us we need to learn from you.  Had you considered that's your blind spot?  Arrogance?
  

Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him - Groucho Marx

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way - Mark Twain
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Don_G
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Re: NAP and Self-Defence Incompatible
Reply #29 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 1:33pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 13th, 2017 at 12:58pm:
That explains a lot, doesn't it?  You look at the most powerful, wealthy nation on the planet and tell us we need to learn from you.  Had you considered that's your blind spot?  Arrogance?


I think I'm going to take on a friend on this board for my own personal use. But I haven't decided if it will be you or Jeff. What do you think?

It works like this: The odd man out gets a shitkicking by the gang. Either of you are hated enough on this board to be the one! I'm sort of leaning toward you because you're probably the smartest. Or at least, as smart as Americans get?
  
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