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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Free markets, labor mobility, communities (Read 1300 times)
Jeff
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #10 - Jun 10th, 2017 at 4:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:00pm:
Every political philosophy is built on a hefty helping of optimism about the People.
As usual, you are completely wrong.

Classical liberal theories of political economy are based solidly on the idea that people can't be trusted to wield any powers of government, and must be bound down in multiple ways to prevent them from becoming tyrants.

There is yet much for you to learn.

Edit: I'm starting to think you aren't smart enough to understand these things... Angry
  
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kaz
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #11 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:00pm:
Every political philosophy is built on a hefty helping of optimism about the People


Illogical. If that's the case, then why does every government do nothing but limit our rights?  Political philosophies are build on distrust of the people.  None more so than liberalism.

Libertarianism is based on the reality of people.  Government should only protect us from each other.  Not from ourselves.  Government is made of people, power corrupts, limit that power

The Opposition wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 11:00pm:
My favourite is that libertarians assume the free market corrects against scammers, which requires the consumer to be smarter than the scammer, and if he was, well... he'd be scamming the other guy


Ah, the old libertarians = anarchists bit.  You're just pissing into the wind.

Your example is BS.  Everyone has the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't INFRINGE ON THE RIGHT OF OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.

Scamming violates the basic libertarian principle.

Why are you on a libertarian site if you don't know what a libertarian is?

Jeff may have nailed that one ...

  

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Don_G
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #12 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am:
Illogical. If that's the case, then why does every government do nothing but limit our rights?  Political philosophies are build on distrust of the people.  None more so than liberalism.

Libertarianism is based on the reality of people.  Government should only protect us from each other.  Not from ourselves.  Government is made of people, power corrupts, limit that power


Ah, the old libertarians = anarchists bit.  You're just pissing into the wind.

Your example is BS.  Everyone has the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't INFRINGE ON THE RIGHT OF OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.

Scamming violates the basic libertarian principle.

Why are you on a libertarian site if you don't know what a libertarian is?

Jeff may have nailed that one ...



Your government places practically no limitations on your rights that aren't sensible limitations.

And in fact, your government fails the people by not limiting some rights that infringe on the majority's rights, in order to pacify the whims of the extremist whackjobs like you and Jeff.

We'll get into pointing that out for you soon. All you need to know for now is that the American people are inching closer to revolution because of the lack of proper governing.

Trump was the anti-establishment's darling because he promised to bring good to the 99% in so many ways. And now the people are finding out that he lied about nearly all of it.

LOL! A corporate psychopath of the quality of Bernie Madoff doing good for the poor and middle class..

There's the direction for this thread to consider!
  
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kaz
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #13 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:54pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
Your government places practically no limitations on your rights that aren't sensible limitations


Gotcha, government now controls our retirement, our medical care, what we can earn from our employers, the benefits our employers have to provide, who can tell us what color we can paint our living rooms, who can cut our hair and trim our nails, what we can put in our bodies, ...

Just basic, sensible limitations.  You are a sheep.  Or in your native language ... baa ...

Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
And in fact, your government fails the people by not limiting some rights that infringe on the majority's rights, in order to pacify the whims of the extremist whackjobs like you and Jeff.


Examples?

Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
We'll get into pointing that out for you soon.


No, huh ...


Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
All you need to know for now is that the American people are inching closer to revolution because of the lack of proper governing


Yes, people are going to overthrow government because we aren't sufficiently enslaved ... Shocked

Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
Trump was the anti-establishment's darling because he promised to bring good to the 99% in so many ways. And now the people are finding out that he lied about nearly all of it.


Just like Obama, W, Clinton, Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, Boehner, McConnell ...

Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:46pm:
LOL! A corporate psychopath of the quality of Bernie Madoff doing good for the poor and middle class..

There's the direction for this thread to consider!


Why?  To entertain the Canadian socialists?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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The Opposition
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #14 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am:
Illogical. If that's the case, then why does every government do nothing but limit our rights?  Political philosophies are build on distrust of the people.  None more so than liberalism.


You're subtly changing the tune here from political philosophy to actual politics - in practice. I have no interest in politics in practice because every politician is equally a liar and a scoundrel. They wouldn't get to where they are if they weren't. The system is set up that way.

Every political philosophy, including liberalism, is built on an insane belief that people are good, usually in a specific way. For example, actual liberals (not politicians) believe that if you feed people nothing but welfare they'll somehow be responsible enough to keep the world from collapsing.

kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am:
Libertarianism is based on the reality of people.  Government should only protect us from each other.  Not from ourselves.  Government is made of people, power corrupts, limit that power


Here are a few ways libertarians insanely assume people are good:

1. Ostracism. It totally won't turn into blind racism that ends up excluding everyone but the majority from participation in the free market. There are enough people willing to hire that person that if he's really better, he'll naturally rise to the top.

2. Competition. Poorer competitors with solidified places in the free market totally won't and can't band together to put the upstart newcomer who could outcompete them out of business, dropping their prices long enough to push him out and just taking the hit themselves.

3. Trust in Consumer. People totally don't just mindlessly pick the more expensive brand off the shelf assuming it's the best. I totally haven't seen cheap brands disappear from the shelves because people totally aren't too stupid to realise sugar is just a chemical with one fructose and one glucose component which is the same between brands so maybe buy the cheaper one.

kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am:
Ah, the old libertarians = anarchists bit.  You're just pissing into the wind.


Okay, so you're a minarchist. It's not real libertarianism because it completely ignores the NAP and the fact that the State only exists by force.

kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:16am:
Your example is BS.  Everyone has the right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't INFRINGE ON THE RIGHT OF OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.

Scamming violates the basic libertarian principle.


Fraud does, and only in some interpretations. Scamming is not always fraud. You can't have it both ways. Either everyone has the right to do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others (which I agree with) or scamming is not allowed. Pick one.

Scamming violates no rights. It is not a right not to be deceived (and in fact lying is a foremost example of free speech). It is only a right to get what is spelled out in a contract that you will get. Outside of this narrow field of contracts which specify terms exactly, scam away.

It is not your right to get what you think you will get when you buy something, even if the seller made you think that intentionally. It is your right to get what the contract says you will get. Some schools of thought interpret deceptive + intentional = fraud, but some do not.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #15 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:07pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Here are a few ways libertarians insanely assume people are good:

1. Ostracism.
As usual, the fundamental points you make are fundamentally wrong.

If you hadn't wasted your potentially good brain, you could probably explain your bizarre statement...

But there is also your fundamentally evil nature to take into account...
  
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kaz
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #16 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
You're subtly changing the tune here from political philosophy to actual politics - in practice. I have no interest in politics in practice because every politician is equally a liar and a scoundrel. They wouldn't get to where they are if they weren't. The system is set up that way.

Every political philosophy, including liberalism, is built on an insane belief that people are good, usually in a specific way. For example, actual liberals (not politicians) believe that if you feed people nothing but welfare they'll somehow be responsible enough to keep the world from collapsing.


Not so.  The liberal philosophy is based on forced redistribution of wealth, there is no people trust there.

SoCon philosophy is that people won't be moral, so we need to point a gun at them to force them to be good

The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Here are a few ways libertarians insanely assume people are good:

1. Ostracism. It totally won't turn into blind racism that ends up excluding everyone but the majority from participation in the free market. There are enough people willing to hire that person that if he's really better, he'll naturally rise to the top


Hiring the best person is self interest, it helps us earn more money.  That's why it works.  Even the Montgomery bus service did not support forcing their best customers to stand or go to the back.  $$$ talks.  Jim Crow laws were required because businesses wouldn't discriminate on their own

The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
2. Competition. Poorer competitors with solidified places in the free market totally won't and can't band together to put the upstart newcomer who could outcompete them out of business, dropping their prices long enough to push him out and just taking the hit themselves.


How'd that work out for Microsoft, one of the greatest anti-trust violators ever?  They got away with it in the short run, not the long run

The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
3. Trust in Consumer. People totally don't just mindlessly pick the more expensive brand off the shelf assuming it's the best. I totally haven't seen cheap brands disappear from the shelves because people totally aren't too stupid to realise sugar is just a chemical with one fructose and one glucose component which is the same between brands so maybe buy the cheaper one.


Not getting your point


The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Okay, so you're a minarchist. It's not real libertarianism because it completely ignores the NAP and the fact that the State only exists by force.


Yes, I'm a minarchist.  No, libertarians are mostly not anarchists.  I even say in my avatar I'm a "small government libertarian."  I don't know why anarchists like to call themselves libertarian, it confuses the subject


The Opposition wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
Fraud does, and only in some interpretations. Scamming is not always fraud. You can't have it both ways. Either everyone has the right to do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others (which I agree with) or scamming is not allowed. Pick one.

Scamming violates no rights. It is not a right not to be deceived (and in fact lying is a foremost example of free speech). It is only a right to get what is spelled out in a contract that you will get. Outside of this narrow field of contracts which specify terms exactly, scam away.

It is not your right to get what you think you will get when you buy something, even if the seller made you think that intentionally. It is your right to get what the contract says you will get. Some schools of thought interpret deceptive + intentional = fraud, but some do not.


You seem to be confused:

Fraud/scam:  Intentionally misrepresenting the truth.  That is clearly a violation of the basic libertarian premise you can do what you want as long as you don't infringe on other's right to the same, and libertarians would have both criminal and civilian courts to redress it.

I don't put a lot of people on ignore, but if you continue to argue libertarian = anarchist, you may get there.

I am not an anarchist, most libertarians are not anarchists, and you're arguing that because you're intellectually lazy and it makes your arguments easy even if they have nothing to do with the people you are debating.  You're just getting mind numbingly dull at this point since you insist on arguing against anarchy in every post when I'm not an anarchist.  I'll argue against socons with every post with you, that would be fun for you, huh?

No one so far on the site has told me they are an anarchist.  Cut the stupid
  

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Don_G
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #17 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:23pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:54pm:
Gotcha, government now controls our retirement, our medical care, what we can earn from our employers, the benefits our employers have to provide, who can tell us what color we can paint our living rooms, who can cut our hair and trim our nails, what we can put in our bodies, ...


As is appropriate, with the exception of the colour you paint something. (providing there isn't a good valid reason for some limitations)
And your personal hygiene is everybody's business when you act like pigs.

Quote:
Just basic, sensible limitations.  You are a sheep.  Or in your native language ... baa ...


Statistics show that Canada has some of the happiest people (sheep) in the world. Your country doesn't even made the top 15 cut.


Quote:
Yes, people are going to overthrow government because we aren't sufficiently enslaved ... Shocked


I wish it were so because righties frothing at the mouth like you would be gunned down first. But it ain't gonna happen so bad luck for me.


Quote:
Just like Obama, W, Clinton, Clinton, Pelosi, Reid, Boehner, McConnell ...


All your country's politicians are corrupt and corrupted by the system. Now we're making progress!



  
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kaz
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #18 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:23pm:
As is appropriate, with the exception of the colour you paint something. (providing there isn't a good valid reason for some limitations)
And your personal hygiene is everybody's business when you act like pigs.


Statistics show that Canada has some of the happiest people (sheep) in the world. Your country doesn't even made the top 15 cut.



I wish it were so because righties frothing at the mouth like you would be gunned down first. But it ain't gonna happen so bad luck for me.



All your country's politicians are corrupt and corrupted by the system. Now we're making progress!





Yes, our politicians don't fart lilacs like yours do.  You convinced a libertarian that politicians suck, you're quite the wizard.  For your next trick, are you going to make water wet?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Free markets, labor mobility, communities
Reply #19 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:32pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:27pm:
Yes, our politicians don't fart lilacs like yours do.  You convinced a libertarian that politicians suck, you're quite the wizard.  For your next trick, are you going to make water wet?


This is progress. You're reduced to silly insults. And you acknowledge that Canada's politicians are different and better than your own. We'll continue soon!
  
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