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Dissident Right
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Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Jun 9th, 2017 at 12:21am
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The title is not even remotely true.

Libertarianism is no more based on reality than communism. It is no less idealistic than progressivism.

Here are the three most obvious examples:

1. Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation. Libertarians are mystified as to why Jews, blacks, Chinese, (in America) and so on haven’t embraced the ideals of non-aggression. They don’t understand the fundamental causes of the Civil War. They don’t understand pre-Trump political alliances, nor can they predict what the political landscape will look like in 20 years. Nationalists understand all of this intuitively. Yankees went to war with Southerners because they were separate nations competing for control of a single government. Minority groups form tenuous political alliances against Americans because they aren’t Americans. Etc.

2. Libertarians confuse cause and effect when it comes to the State. Does the State create war, or does war create the State? If the latter, what actually is the fundamental cause of war? The answer of course is “both”, but libertarians have tunnel vision on this subject.

3. Libertarianism treats men and women as politically, socially, and economically interchangeable. This is why libertarians support genderqueerlings, gays and gay marriage, conscious sterility, feminist “equality”, and so on and so forth. Of course this is sheer nonsense.

------------------------------------

Once you accept that nations are real, and that it is impossible to understand politics or war or global relations without an understanding of the nation, you quickly discover that most libertarian ideals cannot be taken terribly seriously.

The most obvious example is international free markets; aka xeno capitalism.

The libertarian is fundamentally incapable of understanding why xeno capitalism ends up being so destructive. Libertarians engage in rationalizations that would make Stalin proud.

The beginning of the answer is that people from different nations are not fungible. That's reality.
  

Jeff carpools with murderers.
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merkelstan
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #1 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 8:07am
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Lots of interesting points there Dissident.

I'll try to get a full response together, but the elites can destroy nations by cultural intermixing.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #2 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 8:21am
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Dissident Right wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 12:21am:
The title is not even remotely true.

Libertarianism is no more based on reality than communism. It is no less idealistic than progressivism.

Here are the three most obvious examples:

1. Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation. Libertarians are mystified as to why Jews, blacks, Chinese, (in America) and so on haven’t embraced the ideals of non-aggression. They don’t understand the fundamental causes of the Civil War. They don’t understand pre-Trump political alliances, nor can they predict what the political landscape will look like in 20 years. Nationalists understand all of this intuitively. Yankees went to war with Southerners because they were separate nations competing for control of a single government. Minority groups form tenuous political alliances against Americans because they aren’t Americans. Etc.

2. Libertarians confuse cause and effect when it comes to the State. Does the State create war, or does war create the State? If the latter, what actually is the fundamental cause of war? The answer of course is “both”, but libertarians have tunnel vision on this subject.

3. Libertarianism treats men and women as politically, socially, and economically interchangeable. This is why libertarians support genderqueerlings, gays and gay marriage, conscious sterility, feminist “equality”, and so on and so forth. Of course this is sheer nonsense.

------------------------------------

Once you accept that nations are real, and that it is impossible to understand politics or war or global relations without an understanding of the nation, you quickly discover that most libertarian ideals cannot be taken terribly seriously.

The most obvious example is international free markets; aka xeno capitalism.

The libertarian is fundamentally incapable of understanding why xeno capitalism ends up being so destructive. Libertarians engage in rationalizations that would make Stalin proud.

The beginning of the answer is that people from different nations are not fungible. That's reality.
What a load  of crap.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #3 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 9:59am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 8:21am:
What a load  of crap.

I agree somewhat.  Huge problems with false premises on #1 and #2. (#3 is spot on, so no need to argue that.)

1) "Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation."

This is a paranoid-schizophrenic perspective of Libertarianism.  Libertarians advocate and defend the rights of of the individual.  We also recognize the sovereignty of a nation, but individual sovereignty comes first.  We have a problem when the State becomes disconnected with its Constitutional limitations, and pretends to have (part) ownership of its citizens.

I can't think of a better example of this than Income Taxes.  This Tax is wrong on so many levels. And Gun Control.  The State claims that it has to power to impose infringements on our right to keep and bear arms.  The Constitution adamantly disagrees!

2. "Libertarians confuse cause and effect when it comes to the State. Does the State create war, or does war create the State? If the latter, what actually is the fundamental cause of war?"

Its human nature to make war.  Period.  Tribal Wars have been going on since men were painting pictures of the animals they hunted on cave walls.  Men will always find differences about things, conflicts will escalate and eventually, someone will throw the first punch.  The guy that got punched gets his friends to retaliate with him.  War begins.

The State exists not because of war. It exists because a civilized (Republic) society needs a body of representatives to act on the behalf of its constituents.  We call this body of Administrators, Lawmakers, and Judges the "State".
  
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kaz
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #4 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 10:34am
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Dissident Right wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 12:21am:
The title is not even remotely true.

Libertarianism is no more based on reality than communism. It is no less idealistic than progressivism.

Here are the three most obvious examples:

1. Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation. Libertarians are mystified as to why Jews, blacks, Chinese, (in America) and so on haven’t embraced the ideals of non-aggression. They don’t understand the fundamental causes of the Civil War. They don’t understand pre-Trump political alliances, nor can they predict what the political landscape will look like in 20 years. Nationalists understand all of this intuitively. Yankees went to war with Southerners because they were separate nations competing for control of a single government. Minority groups form tenuous political alliances against Americans because they aren’t Americans. Etc.

2. Libertarians confuse cause and effect when it comes to the State. Does the State create war, or does war create the State? If the latter, what actually is the fundamental cause of war? The answer of course is “both”, but libertarians have tunnel vision on this subject.

3. Libertarianism treats men and women as politically, socially, and economically interchangeable. This is why libertarians support genderqueerlings, gays and gay marriage, conscious sterility, feminist “equality”, and so on and so forth. Of course this is sheer nonsense.

------------------------------------

Once you accept that nations are real, and that it is impossible to understand politics or war or global relations without an understanding of the nation, you quickly discover that most libertarian ideals cannot be taken terribly seriously.

The most obvious example is international free markets; aka xeno capitalism.

The libertarian is fundamentally incapable of understanding why xeno capitalism ends up being so destructive. Libertarians engage in rationalizations that would make Stalin proud.

The beginning of the answer is that people from different nations are not fungible. That's reality.


It's proper to cite me in using my quote, Holmes.  Your thread title is my quote.

Liberals don't even follow their own stupid ideology.  They cheat on their taxes and don't give shit to charity on their own.

SoCons believe pointing a gun at someone and forcing them to succumb to your will can make them moral

"Moderate" Republicans don't have any ideology at all, they just want to split the difference.

Libertarianism is based on the view that people will act in their own interest, and the purpose of government should be to protect us from others usurping our right to do the same.

Clearly libertarianism is the ONLY ideology based on the reality of human nature, we're the only one that being a human is exactly how we expect people to act
  

Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him - Groucho Marx

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way - Mark Twain
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kaz
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #5 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 10:34am
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Quote:
1. Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation. Libertarians are mystified as to why Jews, blacks, Chinese, (in America) and so on haven’t embraced the ideals of non-aggression. They don’t understand the fundamental causes of the Civil War. They don’t understand pre-Trump political alliances, nor can they predict what the political landscape will look like in 20 years. Nationalists understand all of this intuitively. Yankees went to war with Southerners because they were separate nations competing for control of a single government. Minority groups form tenuous political alliances against Americans because they aren’t Americans. Etc.

2. Libertarians confuse cause and effect when it comes to the State. Does the State create war, or does war create the State? If the latter, what actually is the fundamental cause of war? The answer of course is “both”, but libertarians have tunnel vision on this subject.

3. Libertarianism treats men and women as politically, socially, and economically interchangeable. This is why libertarians support genderqueerlings, gays and gay marriage, conscious sterility, feminist “equality”, and so on and so forth. Of course this is sheer nonsense.


Again, how do you post on a libertarian and you know nothing about libertarians?  This is too tripping to even figure out where to start in addressing it
  

Man does not control his own fate. The women in his life do that for him - Groucho Marx

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way - Mark Twain
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SkyChief
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #6 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 10:56am
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kaz wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 10:34am:
Liberals don't even follow their own stupid ideology.  They cheat on their taxes and don't give shit to charity on their own.

I give very little to charity.  True. I would give a lot more to charity if the Fed & State governments didn't steal 38% of my annual earnings.

I don't "cheat" on my taxes. I exploit loopholes.  Big difference.    Smiley
  
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Dissident Right
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #7 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 1:12pm
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merkelstan wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 8:07am:
Lots of interesting points there Dissident.

Thanks.

Quote:
I'll try to get a full response together, but the elites can destroy nations by cultural intermixing.

Cultural intermixing is a problem. National intermixing is a greater problem. What the elites want to do is to pit all the different nations against each other within a given political system. If we’re busy fighting each other, we’re not fighting them.

SkyChief wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 9:59am:
1) "Libertarianism absolutely disregards the existence of the nation."

This is a paranoid-schizophrenic perspective of Libertarianism.  Libertarians advocate and defend the rights of of the individual.  We also recognize the sovereignty of a nation, but individual sovereignty comes first.

Do you? Do you recognize the sovereignty of a nation? Does the nation have the sovereign right to tell the individual, “No, you cannot sell this plot of land to a xeno.” “No, you cannot import 100 xenos to replace your current workforce at half the wage.” “No, you cannot export 50 million dollars worth of capital offshore, firing all your native workers in the process.” “No, you cannot uncut national wages by importing cheap xeno goods & services.”

You already gave the libertarian answer. The sovereignty of the individual comes first. Since libertarianism accepts that the individual has the right to take actions that are harmful (either in the short run or the long run) to the nation as long as the individual is not engaging in aggression, then “national sovereignty” is meaningless.

Quote:
I can't think of a better example of this than Income Taxes.  This Tax is wrong on so many levels. And Gun Control.  The State claims that it has to power to impose infringements on our right to keep and bear arms.  The Constitution adamantly disagrees!

Well sure. America is not a particularly good example because the Federal government is a globalist occupation that actively acts to harm the national interests of Americans.

Quote:
The guy that got punched gets his friends to retaliate with him.  War begins.

And don’t you see how this is half the basis for the State? The nation is more than just the few villages or cities that were directly attacked (and therefore have a direct incentive to fight back). The leader(s) of the nation form an effective State so they can draft the whole nation (not just the border villages) into the war, and tax the whole nation (not just the border villages) to fund it.

And the this is a perfectly sensible action for them to take. It is not at all evil as libertarians typically assume. The nation as a whole is far better equipped to win the war than the few particular individuals or families or towns that were directly affected by the attacks. And the nation is much better off winning the war than losing it.

Of course, once war has created a State, the State then naturally proceeds to attract sociopaths, power-seekers, and the corrupt. It may not happen right away, it may take several generations or many generations, but it happens eventually. And these people figure out pretty quickly that war is an excellent way to maintain and enhance their power. Hence imperialism. But empires can’t last forever because the nations they conquer inevitably weaken the empire from within and ultimately tear it apart.

And the circle of life continues.
  

Jeff carpools with murderers.
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Jeff
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #8 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 9:59am:
(#3 is spot on, so no need to argue that.)


I disagree. There is no need to "support" things you don't agree with in order to be a libertarian. All you have to do is be willing to let people go their own way, not try to enlist the power of the state to force them to be what you think everyone should be. Your idea of 'normal' might not include me. My idea of 'normal' might not include you.

Libertarians think that's just fine.

'Progressives' think the state should define normality and force everyone to be that way, often killing the people who won't or can't fit their definition of 'normal'. This is typical of tribal people. Cry

Edit: Hey, everybody knows what happens when tribal minded people seize power iin a modern nation state... Right?
  
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Re: Only libertarianism is based on human nature
Reply #9 - Jun 13th, 2017 at 12:21am
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Libertarianism is a flawed ideology that is going nowhere and for that reason it's a waste of time to either praise it or condemn it. It's the 'pie in the sky that Americans grasp as their day dream, instead of embracing good and socially responsible capitalism.

Their two main political parties don't offer that. A new party is sorely needed and it won't be libertarian which is never going to exceed more than about 2% nationally.
  
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