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kaz
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The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Jun 9th, 2017 at 2:55pm
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... and not un-coincidentally the worst.

Honorable Mentions - LBJ (making war an economic policy), Teddy Roosevelt (the first big government liberal), Buchannan (policies led directly to Civil War), HW (war on terror), Obama (making every American a dependent of government for their healthcare)

3)  Woodrow Wilson - For setting us on the path of being the policeman to the world with the Treaty of Paris (1920)

2)  FDR - For many reasons, the biggest being for eliminating State rights

1)  Lincoln - Our country was founded on consent of the governed.  Lincoln ended the legitimacy of government by forcing States to remain in the Union who do not consent to be governed by the US Federal government
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #1 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:14pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 2:55pm:
1)  Lincoln - Our country was founded on consent of the governed.  Lincoln ended the legitimacy of government by forcing States to remain in the Union who do not consent to be governed by the US Federal government

There was a war over slavery already going on in Kansas and Missouri before Lincoln was elected, and he was elected by people who valued freedom as an ideal and were willing to fight for it by ending slavery in America.

They were civilized people, very unlike the slave owners in slave states who tried all sorts of lame rationalizations for them wanting to go on being the Big Man living in the Big house in high style because he had lots of slaves and efficient slave drivers.

One of their rationalizations was "states rights" as if states had any legitimate power to enforce enslaving people. Their other most frequent rationalization was "property rights". People as property is not a civilized notion. It has a long and evil history.

Did Lincoln do extraordinary things, sometimes in violation of the limits of the Constitution? Yes. But the result was that slavery was made illegal in the U.S.

A fervent "states rights" radical then shot Lincoln, and the Deep State took over under Johnson who was an arrogant pro-slavery asshole, and the former slave states were plundered and Jim Crow 'laws' permitted to make former slaves' lives as bad or worse than they were as slaves.

Andrew Johnson was much worse than Lincoln.
  
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #2 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:23pm
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Once again, I agree with with Jeff.  This time regarding the civil war an Lincoln.  The most anti-libertarian aspect of the constitution was its tacit approval of slavery.  Lincoln corrected that but did damage state sovereignty. 

FDR is clearly the most anti-libertarian president.  He is the United States Gracchus.  He transgressed numerous traditional limits on republican rule and created the cult of the president and federal power.  This led to the likes of LBJ and now Trump.

Obama's worst sins were in cementing G.W.s worst sins.  The perputual war on terror and vast increase in the power of the security apparatus.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #3 - Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:28pm
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ahhell wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:23pm:
FDR is clearly the most anti-libertarian president.  He is the United States Gracchus.  He transgressed numerous traditional limits on republican rule and created the cult of the president and federal power.  This led to the likes of LBJ and now Trump.

I agree that FDR did the most to destroy American liberty. It was his insistence that the Supreme Court invert and pervert our Constitution by re-interpreting it, and it is that bastard interpretation that has led us to the 'progressive' welfare/warfare police state we have become.
  
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kaz
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #4 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:00am
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Jeff wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:14pm:
There was a war over slavery already going on in Kansas and Missouri before Lincoln was elected, and he was elected by people who valued freedom as an ideal and were willing to fight for it by ending slavery in America.

They were civilized people, very unlike the slave owners in slave states who tried all sorts of lame rationalizations for them wanting to go on being the Big Man living in the Big house in high style because he had lots of slaves and efficient slave drivers.

One of their rationalizations was "states rights" as if states had any legitimate power to enforce enslaving people. Their other most frequent rationalization was "property rights". People as property is not a civilized notion. It has a long and evil history.

Did Lincoln do extraordinary things, sometimes in violation of the limits of the Constitution? Yes. But the result was that slavery was made illegal in the U.S.

A fervent "states rights" radical then shot Lincoln, and the Deep State took over under Johnson who was an arrogant pro-slavery asshole, and the former slave states were plundered and Jim Crow 'laws' permitted to make former slaves' lives as bad or worse than they were as slaves.

Andrew Johnson was much worse than Lincoln.


So in your mind, Jeff, did your post address my point on "consent of the governed?"  Our country was based on that principle.  Is it important?  How do we say "We The People" when people are forced to be in the Union?  That really means the Constitution is from "We Some of the People, The Ones With The Most Guns"

Consent of the governed is far more than "State rights."  I personally no longer recognize the legitimacy of the American government.  I follow it's laws because I want to live here and I won't pay the price for violating them.  But the government has consistently and repeatedly violated the terms of the arrangement with the people, the Constitution, and is no longer legitimate
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #5 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:05am
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ahhell wrote on Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:23pm:
Once again, I agree with with Jeff.  This time regarding the civil war an Lincoln.  The most anti-libertarian aspect of the constitution was its tacit approval of slavery.  Lincoln corrected that but did damage state sovereignty. 

FDR is clearly the most anti-libertarian president.  He is the United States Gracchus.  He transgressed numerous traditional limits on republican rule and created the cult of the president and federal power.  This led to the likes of LBJ and now Trump.

Obama's worst sins were in cementing G.W.s worst sins.  The perputual war on terror and vast increase in the power of the security apparatus.


So are you like Jeff ignoring my central point, consent of the governed, or are you arguing that slavery overrode it?  I'm not clear.

I'll discuss slavery, but only after you acknowledge my point
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #6 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:23pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:00am:
So in your mind, Jeff, did your post address my point on "consent of the governed?"  Our country was based on that principle.  Is it important?  How do we say "We The People" when people are forced to be in the Union?
Slavery was accepted at the outset only for extraneous reasons, not because the people of America thought human slavery was a good liberal idea.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #7 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:25pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 11:05am:
So are you like Jeff ignoring my central point...
No, I'm addressing it. Your central point is that states have some right to permit human slavery within their borders.(Because human slavery is traditional on earth?)

Your premise is evil, and you won't actually argue for it.
  
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #8 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:23pm:
Slavery was accepted at the outset only for extraneous reasons, not because the people of America thought human slavery was a good liberal idea.


I haven't said anything about slavery, you and ahhell did.  I talked about consent of the governed.  Is that important?  Consent of the Governed?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: The three most un-libertarian Presidents in history ...
Reply #9 - Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 11th, 2017 at 5:25pm:
No, I'm addressing it. Your central point is that states have some right to permit human slavery within their borders.(Because human slavery is traditional on earth?)

Your premise is evil, and you won't actually argue for it.


I said that?  Wow, I am a jerk.

One problem, I didn't say that, you made it up ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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