Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Immigration under libertarian principals
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Immigration under libertarian principals (Read 1378 times)
mr_idiot777
Libertarian Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3
Joined: Jun 14th, 2017
Immigration under libertarian principals
Jun 14th, 2017 at 2:48pm
Print Post  
What's the libertarian position on immigration (illegal and legal)? Should countries seek to preserve their cultures through a strict immigration policy or should they keep their borders open so as to provide an opportunity to people from less fortunate places in the world to immigrate?
From a strictly libertarian point of view, isn't it against NAP to stop anyone from freely moving where they want to go? How can we even justify borders under libertarianism since every person in principal has the same natural rights and should, therefore, be treated the same regardless of which side of the border he was born?
On the other hand, open borders run the risk of allowing people from unfree cultures who know nothing about western values to immigrate into free countries and wreck havoc on those societies.
This was clearly seen during the Charlie Hebdo shooting in France where 12 people were killed for practicing free speech in a free country (was a free country). Those attacks in France resulted in a de-facto reduction in freedom of speech in France because now if you want to say something bad about Islam, you might just get the death penalty by the unofficial police (Muslim radicals) who roam the streets in France.
So doesn't this lead to a paradox? By sticking to NAP and allowing everyone to immigrate into a country (because under NAP it's their natural right) we run the risk of changing the very culture of that country that supports freedom and human rights.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 2924
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #1 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:15pm
Print Post  
mr_idiot777 wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
What's the libertarian position on immigration (illegal and legal)? Should countries seek to preserve their cultures through a strict immigration policy or should they keep their borders open so as to provide an opportunity to people from less fortunate places in the world to immigrate?
From a strictly libertarian point of view, isn't it against NAP to stop anyone from freely moving where they want to go? How can we even justify borders under libertarianism since every person in principal has the same natural rights and should, therefore, be treated the same regardless of which side of the border he was born?
On the other hand, open borders run the risk of allowing people from unfree cultures who know nothing about western values to immigrate into free countries and wreck havoc on those societies.
This was clearly seen during the Charlie Hebdo shooting in France where 12 people were killed for practicing free speech in a free country (was a free country). Those attacks in France resulted in a de-facto reduction in freedom of speech in France because now if you want to say something bad about Islam, you might just get the death penalty by the unofficial police (Muslim radicals) who roam the streets in France.
So doesn't this lead to a paradox? By sticking to NAP and allowing everyone to immigrate into a country (because under NAP it's their natural right) we run the risk of changing the very culture of that country that supports freedom and human rights.


Libertarians generally support free immigration to the point of stupid.   While I am libertarian in most ways, that is one I disagree with them on.  Many libertarians agree with me on that, but percentage wise, most would allow unlimited, uncontrolled immigration
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4052
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #2 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:28pm
Print Post  
These are valid questions about how Libertarians feel about open borders.

I'm going out on a limb here, and will say the "official" Libertarian position on immigration is that anyone who is not a threat to national security should be allowed to enter the country unmolested. After all, "We are a nation of immigrants." We shouldn't be concerned with what these immigrants have to offer, or their ability to assimilate into American Culture. Just open the gates and get out of the way! 

That said, I believe it to be a bunch of hooey. Because there's no reliable method of determining whether or not an immigrant is a threat to national security.  There simply isn't.  And the ones who pretend that there is are just fooling themselves.

Desireable immigrants will usually observe immigration Laws and apply for citizenship through normal protocol.  The undesireable ones will sidestep normal channels and sneak in under the radar.  Sometimes risking their own lives and the lives of their children. 

Immigration needs to be reformed. There needs to be a method for immigrants who want to work here (but are not interested in citizenship) to be able to obtain a work Visa, which can be renewed for a fee.  They should be able to buy a Visa extension, providing they have not been convicted of a felony.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dissident Right
Ex Member


Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #3 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:34pm
Print Post  
The libertarian position has always been open borders.

But as open borders become increasingly difficult to defend, you will see more and more libertarians come up with excuses to compromise their principles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 2924
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #4 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:51pm
Print Post  
Quote:
The libertarian position has always been open borders.

But as open borders become increasingly difficult to defend, you will see more and more libertarians come up with excuses to compromise their principles.


So just to be clear, if you ever disagree with the right, you are compromising your principles, that's your standard?

I'm a libertarian because I believe we should minimize government to maximize our liberty.  When making government smaller or larger reduces my liberty, that's when government is the optimal size.

Allowing drugs, criminals and people who can't support themselves to flow freely into the country isn't expanding my liberty.  My principle is to have government verify that those entering the country can support themselves, are not criminals and are not carrying diseases.  There are no excuses there
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mr_idiot777
Libertarian Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3
Joined: Jun 14th, 2017
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #5 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:00pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:15pm:
Libertarians generally support free immigration to the point of stupid.   While I am libertarian in most ways, that is one I disagree with them on.  Many libertarians agree with me on that, but percentage wise, most would allow unlimited, uncontrolled immigration


Yes, I'm with you on that. Immigration is an issue that should be taken seriously and must be controlled to some degree.

That said, how do we justify it under strict libertarian principals such as NAP and the requirement to assume people as innocent until proven guilty? How do we as libertarians justify assigning different "rights of movement" to people based on which side of a border they happened to find themselves? Don't all people have the same natural rights?

If we can't answer these questions, doesn't that mean that the libertarian philosophy is flawed/incomplete in some way?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kaz
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Minarchist

Posts: 2924
Location: Kazmania
Joined: Jun 6th, 2017
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #6 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
mr_idiot777 wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:00pm:
Yes, I'm with you on that. Immigration is an issue that should be taken seriously and must be controlled to some degree.

That said, how do we justify it under strict libertarian principals such as NAP and the requirement to assume people as innocent until proven guilty? How do we as libertarians justify assigning different "rights of movement" to people based on which side of a border they happened to find themselves? Don't all people have the same natural rights?

If we can't answer these questions, doesn't that mean that the libertarian philosophy is flawed/incomplete in some way?


I'm a citizen of the United States, not a citizen of the world.   No one has the right to self select to come here.  Again my standard

- They should be able to support themselves
- We should be able to verify they don't have a criminal record (including for coming here illegally in the past)
- We should be able to verify they do not have health issues (e.g., communicable diseases or need expensive medical needs they can't pay for)

As for NAP, the belief in pure NAP is an anarchist principle.  Small government libertarians don't strictly adhere to it.  For example, collecting mandatory taxes.  We want taxes small, but we don't believe they should be voluntary
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 20230
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #7 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:43pm
Print Post  
kaz wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:15pm:
Libertarians generally support free immigration to the point of stupid.
That is not and has never been true. Since the days of classical liberals, libertarians have generally been rational people. They have always supported more freedom of movement than anyone else ever, and have always supported some sorts of immigration.

It's was 'progressives' who started up this closed border "show me your papers" stuff, and libertarians have always roundly berated governments for being like that.

Mostly libertarians, being mostly rational people, like good sane rational laws, and immigration law is changeable and must change with changing conditions.

When so many of the nations in the world want to destroy evil Capitalist America because we aren't fair or because we're infidels and Jews, our immigration policy must take that into account. Most libertarians understand that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 20230
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #8 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:49pm
Print Post  
mr_idiot777 wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:00pm:
That said, how do we justify it under strict libertarian principals such as NAP and the requirement to assume people as innocent until proven guilty?

If it's illegal to come to the U.S. without authorization/permission, you are innocent only if you do have permission.

If you don't have permission, you are guilty whether you are ever caught and charged or not.

I'm sure some subsection paragraph of the NAP speaks to the fact that entering other people's countries without permission is aggression? Look it up yourself. I'm tired of spoon feeding you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mr_idiot777
Libertarian Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3
Joined: Jun 14th, 2017
Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #9 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 7:35pm
Print Post  
LOL, Jeff I made this post concerning questions about libertarian principles and moral philosophy. What are you bringing up LAW for? What relevance does this have in a philosophical debate?

"I'm sure some subsection paragraph of the NAP speaks to the fact that entering other people's countries without permission is aggression?"

Why is it aggression? Maybe stopping their "freedom of movement" is aggression? Many libertarians think so. In what way do people 'own their country' and what does that mean? Also, many liberals believe you have a moral obligation to share your country with the whole colorful rainbow of humanity. What do you say to that colorful idea?
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2017 at 3:53pm by mr_idiot777 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Immigration under libertarian principals
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy