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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Immigration under libertarian principals (Read 571 times)
Don_G
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #10 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 7:51pm
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mr_idiot777 wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
LOL, Jeff I made this post concerning questions about libertarian principles and moral philosophy. What are you bringing up LAW for? What relevance does this have in a philosophical debate?

"I'm sure some subsection paragraph of the NAP speaks to the fact that entering other people's countries without permission is aggression?"

Why is it aggression? Maybe stopping their "freedom of movement" is aggression? Many libertarians think so. In what why do people 'own their country' and what does that mean? Also, many liberals believe you have a moral obligation to share your country with the whole colorful rainbow of humanity. What do you say to that colorful idea?


The truth is that libertarian philosophy calls for the elimination of all borders.
  
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kaz
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #11 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
The truth is that libertarian philosophy calls for the elimination of all borders.


No, we aren't anarchists, Opie
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #12 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 9:09pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 7:51pm:
The truth is that libertarian philosophy calls for the elimination of all borders.


It does because the second you tell Jones he can't have Ahmed on his land doing his bidding - telling Jones that he can't hire an illegal immigrant and using force to enforce it - you are violating property rights.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #13 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 7:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 9:09pm:
It does because the second you tell Jones he can't have Ahmed on his land doing his bidding - telling Jones that he can't hire an illegal immigrant and using force to enforce it - you are violating property rights.
Property rights?
So you think libertarians, because of their respect for property rights, would defend your 'right' to harbor a murderer in your home?
If Ahmed killed a few people instead of working ('doing your bidding' Cheesy), you could give him sanctuary in your home and prevent his arrest because of property rights?
  
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Crystallas
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #14 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:00am
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Open borders are the libertarian ideals. But there is this flaw in political theory, where concepts are just plugged in modularly, when they are not modular at all. That's why it's not clear, idealism and realism are different, which is why NAP compatibility can fall under a few different answers here as the NAP is a realist AND and idealist principle. Also very important to point out (biggest flaw when newcomers study the philosophy) is that open borders must be plural/plurality. One nation having an open border or one nation being the sole open border can be seen as incompatible with the NAP, because it is possibly unjust to move one way but not the other through a border.
The closest (while still not close to 100%) modern example of the libertarian system is the states of the US. You can travel across borders freely, both ways. An often confused example is when ONE nation has an open border, but the nation next to it does not. While one nation technically allows movement one way, this is not a libertarian concept of open borders. It needs to be both ways, otherwise the nation-state is justified in closing its borders just the same as the other nation.

  
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kaz
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #15 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:44am
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Crystallas wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:00am:
Open borders are the libertarian ideals. But there is this flaw in political theory, where concepts are just plugged in modularly, when they are not modular at all. That's why it's not clear, idealism and realism are different, which is why NAP compatibility can fall under a few different answers here as the NAP is a realist AND and idealist principle. Also very important to point out (biggest flaw when newcomers study the philosophy) is that open borders must be plural/plurality. One nation having an open border or one nation being the sole open border can be seen as incompatible with the NAP, because it is possibly unjust to move one way but not the other through a border.
The closest (while still not close to 100%) modern example of the libertarian system is the states of the US. You can travel across borders freely, both ways. An often confused example is when ONE nation has an open border, but the nation next to it does not. While one nation technically allows movement one way, this is not a libertarian concept of open borders. It needs to be both ways, otherwise the nation-state is justified in closing its borders just the same as the other nation.



I know libertarians who are for open borders and libertarians who aren't, but I've never known anyone with that view.  Where did you come up with it?

The flaw in your argument is that we can only be libertarian ourselves.  Libertarianism isn't a deal where you decide to be libertarian only if the other guy agrees.  You are or you aren't.

I just don't find the concept of unconditionally open borders to be libertarian at all.  I want to minimize government to maximize liberty.  Providing free access to drug dealers and criminals to enter our country isn't maximizing my liberty.  Libertarians who support that are lost in ideology over substance
  

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kaz
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #16 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:49am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 9:09pm:
It does because the second you tell Jones he can't have Ahmed on his land doing his bidding - telling Jones that he can't hire an illegal immigrant and using force to enforce it - you are violating property rights.


Is Ahmed a terrorist?  Yes and no answers to that are entirely different scenarios
  

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Crystallas
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #17 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 10:32am
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kaz wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:44am:
I know libertarians who are for open borders and libertarians who aren't, but I've never known anyone with that view.  Where did you come up with it?

The flaw in your argument is that we can only be libertarian ourselves.  Libertarianism isn't a deal where you decide to be libertarian only if the other guy agrees.  You are or you aren't.


Is that how you perceive it? That is not remotely close to what I wrote. I can equally use your logic here, not mine, to demonstrate the flaw in your argument.

kaz wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:44am:
I just don't find the concept of unconditionally open borders to be libertarian at all.  I want to minimize government to maximize liberty.  Providing free access to drug dealers and criminals to enter our country isn't maximizing my liberty.  Libertarians who support that are lost in ideology over substance


So using your logic and implied definition, libertarians are only at the common denominator. So if the worst people are criminals, we all must be. Right? Or am I not allowed to skew your statement, but you're allowed to skew mine?  Roll Eyes

I make no argument of my own. I'm just relaying how the NAP works because a differing claim was made (assuming another one that takes the words for face value, and not the framework/definition).

Do you decide what is libertarian based on what stances self-proclaimed libertarians take? Then you wind up with a meaning based on perception, not perceptions based on meanings (a puzzle in itself, not for the light-thinker). Which leaves you with conclusions based on an inverted pyramid and are non-praxeological (a direct conflict with libertarianism).

Your self-defined position reminds me of that of the Know-Nothings. *notice the capitalization for the daft who may read this as some kind of insult without looking carefully.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #18 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 12:04pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 9:09pm:
It does because the second you tell Jones he can't have Ahmed on his land doing his bidding - telling Jones that he can't hire an illegal immigrant and using force to enforce it - you are violating property rights.


Roughly correct reading of the libertarian playbook! I'm quite surprised that some socalled libertarians aren't aware of that!
  
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Don_G
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #19 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 12:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 14th, 2017 at 4:49pm:
If it's illegal to come to the U.S. without authorization/permission, you are innocent only if you do have permission.

If you don't have permission, you are guilty whether you are ever caught and charged or not.

I'm sure some subsection paragraph of the NAP speaks to the fact that entering other people's countries without permission is aggression? Look it up yourself. I'm tired of spoon feeding you.


Well then, that last comment I made about libertarian priorities certainly awakened a few people out of their comas!

Better still, it exposed Kaz as the phony most always knew he is.
  
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