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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Immigration under libertarian principals (Read 1554 times)
Crystallas
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #30 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 4:03pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 3:13pm:
Seems you're the type to keep saying you didn't say what you said on a message board


Are you making "some another point"?

Calm yourself, swallow your pride, and re-read what was said. Take your time to gather and construct thoughts then clean up your typos before posting them.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #31 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 4:19pm
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Crystallas wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 4:03pm:
Are you making "some another point"?

Calm yourself, swallow your pride, and re-read what was said. Take your time to gather and construct thoughts then clean up your typos before posting them.
I don't care that much about spelling and typos, I care about gathering thoughts and expressing them well (Strunk & White?) Smiley!

You are giving true and essential advice here. It never has hurt me to be reminded of such things. Thanks.
  
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kaz
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #32 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 5:15pm
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Crystallas wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 4:03pm:
Are you making "some another point"?

Calm yourself, swallow your pride, and re-read what was said. Take your time to gather and construct thoughts then clean up your typos before posting them.


Wow, I hit a nerve.  Don't sweat it, it's just a message board
  

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Jeff
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #33 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 5:23pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 5:15pm:
Wow, I hit a nerve.  Don't sweat it, it's just a message board
Are you dissing this lady because she doesn't meet your expectations with her posts? Or because you hate women?

No, I know, it's likely because you don't like what she said.

You hate her thoughts and think it would be best to just kill her outright?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #34 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:07pm
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Crystallas wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:00am:
Open borders are the libertarian ideals. But there is this flaw in political theory, where concepts are just plugged in modularly, when they are not modular at all. That's why it's not clear, idealism and realism are different, which is why NAP compatibility can fall under a few different answers here as the NAP is a realist AND and idealist principle. Also very important to point out (biggest flaw when newcomers study the philosophy) is that open borders must be plural/plurality. One nation having an open border or one nation being the sole open border can be seen as incompatible with the NAP, because it is possibly unjust to move one way but not the other through a border.
The closest (while still not close to 100%) modern example of the libertarian system is the states of the US. You can travel across borders freely, both ways. An often confused example is when ONE nation has an open border, but the nation next to it does not. While one nation technically allows movement one way, this is not a libertarian concept of open borders. It needs to be both ways, otherwise the nation-state is justified in closing its borders just the same as the other nation.


No, we're justified in moving across their unjustly closed borders. We'll be punished, but the punishment is in the wrong and we are in the right.

You're wrong. You're saying that because Juan aggressed against Joseph, Joseph is justified in aggressing against Pedro. This is literally what you're saying. A tyrannical government won't let me across the border, so I get to vote for Trump to spite others who simply want to cross a border. This is not how the NAP works. This isn't even how self-defence works and you know my opinion on that. One wrong never justifies another wrong against a separate individual.

This is very much a case of two wrongs not making a right, and you trying to put the glass slipper of libertarianism on the ugly foot of practicality. It doesn't fit.

This is not to say libertarianism is wrong. I don't think it is. It just demands a very high degree of self-sacrifice. It's one I'm prepared to make, and one I'm prepared to impose on my children. I hope I get the change to see Mexican gang violence shoot my children dead so I can prove how committed I am as I continue to chant, "LET THEM IN."
  

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Jeff
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #35 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 7:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:07pm:
No, we're justified in moving across their unjustly closed borders. We'll be punished, but the punishment is in the wrong and we are in the right.

Ideally speaking, the NAP will prevent them from punishing you.

Congress needs to give us better immigration laws.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #36 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 9:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 7:54am:
Ideally speaking, the NAP will prevent them from punishing you.


No, it just prevents them from being right if they punish me, when all I'm trying to do is exercise my right to travel.

Jeff wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 7:54am:
Congress needs to give us better immigration laws.


Congress needs to give us open borders so unfit scum like you and I who can't compete on the free market can starve and die, as we should.
  

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Don_G
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #37 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 10:43pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:07pm:
This is not to say libertarianism is wrong. I don't think it is. It just demands a very high degree of self-sacrifice. It's one I'm prepared to make, and one I'm prepared to impose on my children.


Now you're talking! As I've explained to you on the other thread, it's the way to solve your problems you have with paying taxes. You simply don't run up any bill on your capitalist credit card. You and your family go out and live in the wilderness!
  
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kunstler
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #38 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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The libertarian position has always been open borders.

But as open borders become increasingly difficult to defend, you will see more and more libertarians come up with excuses to compromise their principles.


Why bother having principles to live in your own  land, the one you are born in? I need no principles to live in the USA. My great-grandparents were born here.
  
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Re: Immigration under libertarian principals
Reply #39 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 3:44pm
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Even Milton Friedman once said, that when you have a large government that provides all sorts of "free" services, you need to control your borders in order to avoid free riders. Incentives, if you give anyone the freedom to come into your country and take advantage of all the governmental programs without producing more in comparison, you are doomed. Specially, because these people will support for freebies and continue giving more power to the government, as it is happening now.
  
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