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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Anarchists are only a theoretical model (Read 1941 times)
Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #20 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 7:52am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:14pm:
You're only maximising practical liberty. All that matters is ideal liberty. I will demonstrate this.

Maybe in some environment of pure intellect "ideal liberty" is important, but everywhere else, practical liberty is what counts. Wink

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #21 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 9:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 7:52am:
Maybe in some environment of pure intellect "ideal liberty" is important, but everywhere else, practical liberty is what counts. Wink


You didn't read the post or you'd know that I'm talking about the bare bones of actual, workable choices a person has, and practical liberty being the maximisation of the number of those choices.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #22 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 8:40am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 16th, 2017 at 9:03pm:
You didn't read the post or you'd know that I'm talking about the bare bones of actual, workable choices a person has, and practical liberty being the maximisation of the number of those choices.
You began by saying you were going to prove that only "ideal liberty" matters, which guaranteed that I wouldn't read the post.
  
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kaz
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #23 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 9:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 15th, 2017 at 9:14pm:
I agree.


You're only maximising practical liberty. All that matters is ideal liberty. I will demonstrate this.

Let's say almost every employee wants an offensive bumper sticker and almost every employer disallows it. We could make a regulation that employers can't discriminate on bumper stickers and since there are more employees than employers, it would, net, add practical choices to more people than it removed choices from.

But this is still wrong. It's the employer's job to give - or not - to whosoever he likes. It's up to him to decide, even if giving him this one choice costs 50 other people a choice in practice. Ideal liberty is preserved, which is based on voluntarism, even if people have fewer choices in practice.

It's not about results; it's about right and wrong. If you care more about results than you do right and wrong, you'd be chopping up people for their organs because that saves the most lives. Except that it doesn't matter what conditions people live in, how much practical freedom they have, or how alive or dead they are.

All. that. matters. is. right. and. wrong.



I have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm a libertarian for real liberty, not theoretical liberty.  I want the government that in the real world protects my liberty.  Things like property rights, police, military need to be generally recognized in order to be effective and they can't compete.  If there are two or more arbiters of property rights, I can never be assured I own my property.  That doesn't expand my liberty
  

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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #24 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 9:33am
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kaz wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 9:05am:
I have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm a libertarian for real liberty, not theoretical liberty.  I want the government that in the real world protects my liberty.  Things like property rights, police, military need to be generally recognized in order to be effective and they can't compete.  If there are two or more arbiters of property rights, I can never be assured I own my property.  That doesn't expand my liberty
Another good post with a good point. Thanks.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #25 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:37am
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kaz wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 9:05am:
I have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm a libertarian for real liberty, not theoretical liberty.  I want the government that in the real world protects my liberty.  Things like property rights, police, military need to be generally recognized in order to be effective and they can't compete.  If there are two or more arbiters of property rights, I can never be assured I own my property.  That doesn't expand my liberty


You own your property as long as you pay your taxes. It's a right! But you already know that no rights are are unconditional and shouldn't be.

For instance, if the government needs to build a freeway and your property stands in the way, you will be forced to sell. The greater good is always going to be more important than you.

And if you don't comply with the greater good then you will be PUNISHED!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #26 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 5:49pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:37am:
But you already know that no rights are are unconditional and shouldn't be.



Ho hum.

My right to defend my life and the lives of my family and friends against barbarians is absolute.

Only a barbarian would try to portray is as some sort of government licensed permission.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #27 - Jun 17th, 2017 at 6:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 5:49pm:
Ho hum.

My right to defend my life and the lives of my family and friends against barbarians is absolute.

Only a barbarian would try to portray is as some sort of government licensed permission.


You gave up your right to safety for you and your family when you decided to be a gungoon.  Now you and your family  need to stay lucky.

Pack a gun around with you and you lower the chances for you and your family even further.

Socially responsible capitalist countries don't have that problem.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #28 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 6:52am
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Don_G wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 6:54pm:
You gave up your right to safety for you and your family when you decided to be a gungoon.
"Right to safety"? What nonsense.

Right to self defense? Absolute.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #29 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 12:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 6:52am:
"Right to safety"? What nonsense.

Right to self defense? Absolute.


Right to self defense? Within the legal parameters of course but the US hasn't established those parameters yet and is still making laws in attempts to do so.

All other modern nations have done that long ago and make no mistake on not allowing the murder of it's citizens for petty crimes.

This gives us the basis of a good discussion which can include the 2A which allows the abuse of guns by people who are mentally ill.

That is, mentally with hate!
  
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