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kaz
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #30 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 1:12pm
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Don_G wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:37am:
You own your property as long as you pay your taxes


Yes, in this country already the government owns all property and we are only renters, it's pathetic but true

Don_G wrote on Jun 17th, 2017 at 11:37am:
But you already know that no rights are are unconditional and shouldn't be


No shit, and I keep pointing out your insistence on arguing hyperbole is uninteresting and just an expression of your intellectual laziness leading you to seeking easy and inane arguments. 

What are you even talking about?  Who said rights are unconditional?  I always point out the Constitution even provides the prescription.  Your rights can be limited with due process of law.  Right there is a condition.  Cut the stupid shit
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #31 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 2:32pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 1:12pm:
Who said rights are unconditional?


Libertarians. All the time.

Jeff wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 6:52am:
"Right to safety"? What nonsense.

Right to self defense? Absolute.


https://fvdb.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/are-rights-absolute/

Quote:
A right is absolute in the sense that you are entitled to such right as a human being and as an individual in a free society. No one has the right to deprive you of your rights, not even the government. But what kind of right is absolute? These are the rights enumerated under Article I (bill of rights) of our 1987 constitution. Article III, Section 1 is the paramount of all rights, to wit: “No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor shall any person be denied the equal protection of the laws.”


Read this, interpret it as strictly as I do, and tell me I can still self-defend when it means potentially depriving someone of life without due process of law.

There is no wiggle room in my philosophy. If you tell me due process is a right, and is absolute, I will tell you self-defence is not, because I can't %$#&ing shoot him without due process.
  

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kaz
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #32 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 2:32pm:
Libertarians. All the time


It's always special when a non-libertarian tells a libertarian what libertarians think ...

As for your point, only anarchists.  Small government libertarians are aware your rights can be limited through due process of law, and that there is a condition, Holmes.

Note I said that in my original reply ... and you whiffed on addressing it ...

Anarchists are a special class.  I'm sick of you and Don the Racist throwing out anti-anarchist points as if it's relevant since no one here is an anarchist.  Just intellectual laziness, it's a lot easier arguing a hyperbole, isn't it?

Anarchists are a different animal from small government libertarian, they aren't a shade of gray.  They are lost in ideology.  I live in the real world where government is corrupt, but things that require societal consensus (property rights, military, police, courts, roads, ...) where there can be only one must be done by what is referred to as "government"
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #33 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:39pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:18pm:
It's always special when a non-libertarian tells a libertarian what libertarians think ...


If you prefer I can delete my response and just leave the Jeff quote.

kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:18pm:
As for your point, only anarchists.  Small government libertarians are aware your rights can be limited through due process of law, and that there is a condition, Holmes.


There is no due process in shooting someone just because they were going to shoot you.

kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:18pm:
Note I said that in my original reply ... and you whiffed on addressing it ...

Anarchists are a special class.  I'm sick of you and Don the Racist throwing out anti-anarchist points as if it's relevant since no one here is an anarchist.  Just intellectual laziness, it's a lot easier arguing a hyperbole, isn't it?

Anarchists are a different animal from small government libertarian, they aren't a shade of gray.  They are lost in ideology.  I live in the real world where government is corrupt, but things that require societal consensus (property rights, military, police, courts, roads, ...) where there can be only one must be done by what is referred to as "government"


So here's the question then.

If you're for freedom only insofar as practical protection of rights rather than adherence to rights ideologically, you basically want to maximise happiness, is that right? In other words, you're aware that things like, for example, letting welfare parasites take everyone else's money is actually not conducive to practical happiness (because the problem only gets worse when subsidised) or practical freedom. You let one welfare queen parasitise, she has ten babies, they all do the same, and pretty soon everyone has less.

So you want smaller government because that makes the most people the best off, right?
  

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kaz
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #34 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
If you prefer I can delete my response and just leave the Jeff quote


So where did I say you don't have a right to post?  I can't find that part.  You thought freedom of speech meant the right to not have your view challenged?  Where did you get that idea?


The Opposition wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
There is no due process in shooting someone just because they were going to shoot you


And that relates to the conversation or contradicts me how?  I said my rights can be Constitutionally violated as long as I have due process of law.  You know the Constitution is a document from the people to the government, not an agreement between citizens, right?


The Opposition wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
So here's the question then.

If you're for freedom only insofar as practical protection of rights rather than adherence to rights ideologically, you basically want to maximise happiness, is that right? In other words, you're aware that things like, for example, letting welfare parasites take everyone else's money is actually not conducive to practical happiness (because the problem only gets worse when subsidised) or practical freedom. You let one welfare queen parasitise, she has ten babies, they all do the same, and pretty soon everyone has less.

So you want smaller government because that makes the most people the best off, right?


I want smaller government to protect the rights of the individual, not to enable the State to trample the rights of one individual at the expense of another.  That you don't know that basic libertarian principle is why I said what I did in the first bullet in my post.

Pure NAP again is anarchist and I don't see any anarchists here
  

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A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way - Mark Twain
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #35 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:17pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 1:12pm:
Yes, in this country already the government owns all property and we are only renters, it's pathetic but true


Our governments have usurped Sovereignty from the People of America, but they aren't yet bold (or stupid?)enough to claim ownership of everything in America.

Besides, it would look stupid and wrong to people for our national government to be taking more of our rights when our economic competitors are busy extending more privileges to their subjects.

Wouldn't it?

Try to think of the rent you pay for owning property as paychecks for the local police and funding for the local schools and support of the local courts. That is principally what you are paying for with your rent. Probably fire departments and libraries too.
  
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #36 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:23pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
So where did I say you don't have a right to post?
The lizard doesn't believe in any such fantasy nonsense as rights, which makes it surprising to me that it would complain if I said it had no right to speak anywhere, which I will.

People who maintain that rights don't exist can't claim the protection of them.

Things like the lizard look at it as all law of the jungle power. That's how lizard brains work. Let your lizard brain control you and you will be a law of the jungle power advocate... except when you are about to be killed, at which time you will gladly complain that someone is about to violate your rights. Kiss
  
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Jeff
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #37 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:31pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 3:39pm:
There is no due process in shooting someone just because they were going to shoot you.


So here's the question then.

If you're for freedom only insofar as practical protection of rights rather than adherence to rights ideologically...
Due process is purely a thing of civilized courts.

Self defense is a basic right. Civilized courts respect and protect that right.



Ideas lead to practical policies if everything goes well, and then liberty is protected... Ideally it's a scientific process, wherein implemented policies arising from ideas are monitored to see what they actually do, and declared bad ideas if they cause famine...

Marxism is one of those ideas that was promised would create peace and wealth and harmony throughout the world, but all the implementations of policies arising from Marxist ideas caused famine and war, widespread poverty at the minimum and most have been abandoned.
  
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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #38 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 6:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:23pm:
The lizard doesn't believe in any such fantasy nonsense as rights, which makes it surprising to me that it would complain if I said it had no right to speak anywhere, which I will.


Are you saying you want me gone from this forum?

Here's a better question: Is one of those millions of rights you have piled up to the sky enabling you to stop me? If so, I'll leave. That's how rights work.
  

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Re: Anarchists are only a theoretical model
Reply #39 - Jun 18th, 2017 at 6:31pm
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kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
So where did I say you don't have a right to post?  I can't find that part.  You thought freedom of speech meant the right to not have your view challenged?  Where did you get that idea?


You have a problem with me telling you what libertarians think so I can easily just quote libertarians instead of telling you anything myself.

kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
And that relates to the conversation or contradicts me how?  I said my rights can be Constitutionally violated as long as I have due process of law.  You know the Constitution is a document from the people to the government, not an agreement between citizens, right?


Are you claiming that as long as it's one citizen against another, you can harm another person? What about not in self-defence? What about just out of the blue?

kaz wrote on Jun 18th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
I want smaller government to protect the rights of the individual,


Yet you've said rights are not absolute. So it's up to them to decide? That's just tyranny. It's tyranny with a small suggestion that you want to be as practically free as possible.
  

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