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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repeal and Replace (Read 2476 times)
kaz
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Repeal and Replace
Jul 19th, 2017 at 1:29pm
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It's funny how the Republican pundits consider Repeal without Replace a failure.  From everything on the table now, it's the best case.  The "replace" has all been Obamacare with renamed provisions.

Now if they'd get into cross state sales, portability and health care accounts, then that would be worth doing.  But they have to remove the filibuster to do that and the Republicans don't have the stones.  Republicans are the battered wife party.  Democrats have owned their sorry asses so long they don't know how to be the majority.

It's so stupid they won't remove the filibuster.  Democrats will do it at the first opportunity and they'll get nothing for keeping it.  Just like Democrats did with judicial and administration appointments
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #1 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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kaz wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 1:29pm:
It's funny how the Republican pundits consider Repeal without Replace a failure.  From everything on the table now, it's the best case.  The "replace" has all been Obamacare with renamed provisions.

Now if they'd get into cross state sales, portability and health care accounts, then that would be worth doing.  But they have to remove the filibuster to do that and the Republicans don't have the stones.  Republicans are the battered wife party.  Democrats have owned their sorry asses so long they don't know how to be the majority.

It's so stupid they won't remove the filibuster.  Democrats will do it at the first opportunity and they'll get nothing for keeping it.  Just like Democrats did with judicial and administration appointments
I really do think their are good reasons to call them The TwoParties, and the TwoParties have been colluding for a very long time to gain ever more power, and ever more wealth, for themselves.

It's why they hate economic liberty and limited government, it cuts way down on the money available for them to steal. Angry
  
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kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #2 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 6:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
I really do think their are good reasons to call them The TwoParties, and the TwoParties have been colluding for a very long time to gain ever more power, and ever more wealth, for themselves.

It's why they hate economic liberty and limited government, it cuts way down on the money available for them to steal. Angry


Republicans and Democrats are like Tweedledee and Tweedledum.  The only difference is their names.  But since there are two of them, that's the only way to refer to one versus the other
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #3 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
I really do think their are good reasons to call them The TwoParties, and the TwoParties have been colluding for a very long time to gain ever more power, and ever more wealth, for themselves.

It's why they hate economic liberty and limited government, it cuts way down on the money available for them to steal. Angry


On topic again:

You Americans are going to get universal health care and Obamacare is going to be the foundation for that change.

The people have had a taste of what's possible and they are already in the majority with 51% favouring the ACA, with some improvements.

The Republicans are fu-ked on  health care. You can say you heard it from me first.

How in hell can it end up any other way? Time and again the R's have been shown by the Congre. budget analysis that there's no other way to bring affordable health care to all the people.

The Republicans are left with nothing but having to expose the ugly truth. They don't believe that all Americans are entitled to health care. And that's all in the past now. Believe it!
  
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kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #4 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:52pm
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Don_G wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:19pm:
On topic again:

You Americans are going to get universal health care and Obamacare is going to be the foundation for that change.

The people have had a taste of what's possible and they are already in the majority with 51% favouring the ACA, with some improvements.

The Republicans are fu-ked on  health care. You can say you heard it from me first.

How in hell can it end up any other way? Time and again the R's have been shown by the Congre. budget analysis that there's no other way to bring affordable health care to all the people.

The Republicans are left with nothing but having to expose the ugly truth. They don't believe that all Americans are entitled to health care. And that's all in the past now. Believe it!


Gotcha.  When Trump ran on repealing Obamacare, he lost big time.  No wait, he won ...
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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stevea
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #5 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 11:17pm
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kaz wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 1:29pm:
It's funny how the Republican pundits consider Repeal without Replace a failure.  From everything on the table now, it's the best case.  The "replace" has all been Obamacare with renamed provisions.


It's the obvious political calculus. Only ~30% of the populations want's "replace", so career politicians who've been taking votes on meaningless "repeal & replace" are now in a hard spot.  If you want a life-long career as ruler uh in Congress, then you should never ever take any stance on any issue that splits your constituency in half.

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Now if they'd get into cross state sales,


Disagree.  The reason that health insurance was ~30% higher in NY & NJ than TX and NM has to do with state laws that make suing medicos for profit much easier.  This forces doctors to carry much heavier insurance and to perform all sorts of 'CYA' procedures to avoid suites.

You can remove the state insurance borders the day you remove the state laws - and IMO that sort of Federalism is exactly the wrong direction for any sort of libertarianism.  No the ppl of Indiana do not need to subsidize NY & NJ ambulance-chasers and scammers.

'loser pays' in civil courts is the easy solution. Each state can do as they please, but should bear the cost & responsibility of their decisions.



Quote:
portability and health care accounts,


Ahem - the only reason we need any special 'portability' is b/c most of us get h.insurance from employers, and this is directly due to socialist-FDR meddling in markets and capping wages during WW2.  HC accounts are a socialist bandage on top of a socialist induced wound.

How bout this for a solution -
1/ (re)create competitive markets for medical services - with open/disclosed prices.
2/ (re)create insurance to act as *insurance* and not welfare and not a cafeteria plan.   The idea of covering for pre-existing conditions is completely stupid, like selling auto insurance to cover already crashed cars.  Insurance that covers every dollar (even fractionally) reduces the market incentives and is bad for all.

[Yes, we need to deal with the indigent, and perhaps define some explicit basic level of acceptable HC]

We NEED a market based solution.

--

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But they have to remove the filibuster to do that and the Republicans don't have the stones.


It *seems* that way at first glance, but frankly they are purposely shirking responsibility; creating a pretext for blame diversion - creating an excuse. 2 or 4 years from now, then the Reps no longer rule Congress they will be whinging about how they couldn't get 51 or 60+ votes and therefore ....  you  should vote for even more feckless Reps.  I believe it's calculated - not a lack of will.

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Republicans are the battered wife party.  Democrats have owned their sorry asses so long they don't know how to be the majority.


Hard to get 'lubed up' over Mcconnell, but again - I don't think it's lack of will.  The Rep party is fractured and the Dem party is totally cracked (in every sense).  This is the perfect scenario for a third party.


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It's so stupid they won't remove the filibuster


Cuz then they'd have to do something and that WILL lose them votes.  The Dems understood perfectly that PPACA/O-care is an addictive drug, and here even 6-7 years later it's ugly work to get the addicts off it, and a lot of 'tough love' is needed.  Making 'someone-else' take responsibility for your HC is just the first step in irresponsibility.

LBJs 'Great Society' notion in the 1960s was sold on humanitarian grounds, and I don't argue that proponents weren't sincere, but the result is dead-obvious to anyone willing to remove the blinders.   The poor & esp Blacks became dependent on handouts and special programs (redistribution) and the programs grew to the sky, and infantilized and prevented self-actualization & fulfillment for millions (while also taking from millions) and moving massive power to DC.  PP-ACA/Ocare is just a much bigger version of this.  They want to infantilize YOU this time, by controlling 1/6th of the economy - a critical fraction that will bloom into a total government take-over.







.  Democrats will do it at the first opportunity and they'll get nothing for keeping it.  Just like Democrats did with judicial and administration appointments [/quote]
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #6 - Jul 19th, 2017 at 11:33pm
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They should focus on repeal. And THEN try to cobble some bi-partisan HC plan together.   But attempting to do both at the same time is too ambitious.  This needs to be done in steps.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #7 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 12:12am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 11:33pm:
They should focus on repeal. And THEN try to cobble some bi-partisan HC plan together.   But attempting to do both at the same time is too ambitious.  This needs to be done in steps.


They have to do it together you dope. Does anybody think they wouldn't just do the repeal if they could save their dirty scheming necks by doing it?

You twit! The people are speaking to them and they're going to start speaking a lot louder. the people have had a taste of what the rest of the civilized world takes for granted and they're not going to let the bastard Republicans turn it back. Get used to it, it's going to make you happy too!
  
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stevea
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 12:34am
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Don_G wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:19pm:
On topic again:

You Americans are going to get universal health care and Obamacare is going to be the foundation for that change.


Maybe - that's what my political calculus tells me is most likely - but you failed to learn the primary lesson of history: you can't lose until you stop fighting, and we're still fighting.   I understand that you, as a collar wearing state-slave, have some personal interest in seeing others fail and befall your fate, but that's your self-hate talking.

I felt like bashing a (former) friend in the face last week when he suggested single-payer was a good-idea.   This is a classic case of ignorant bias in favor of central-solutions and against distributed solutions.   Amazing to me that someone  with a STEM degree can be so stupid. 

Quote:
The people have had a taste of what's possible and they are already in the majority with 51% favouring the ACA, with some improvements.


Free-stuff stolen from others (aka political booty) is always attractive to the recipient; the questions is one of morality and sustainability.   We have a pretty good "taste" of how handouts & redistribution have served the indigent & Black and various minority communities in the past 55yrs.  The agreement is that YOU get a freebie from "the party" in exchange for votes to advance our other ideology - like failed, forced Union controlled schools where we warehouse your children, give them no useful education, and doom them to a life of blackmarket crime & violence.  It's a Faustian bargain, and like you, I have no great faith the US will avoid hitting bottom.

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The Republicans are fu-ked on  health care. You can say you heard it from me first.


Almost certainly (and I read it elsewhere many place first) (and I don't greatly care as 95% of Reps are Lizard ppl), but it appears to me the Dems are perhaps even more crappity smacked.  What about ~30% of Dems totally appalled that Wasserman-Schultz-Phlegm rail-roading Sanders, or Donna Brazile violating every ethic to promote Hillery or Hillary's many scoff-law issues, or the DNC failing to even turn over their server to FBI to investigate vs their massively overblow claims  ?  At some point, even the dogs can't eat that food.

The two parties are cracking up badly, and that suggests a new re-alignment is possible,

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How in hell can it end up any other way? Time and again the R's have been shown by the Congre. budget analysis that there's no other way to bring affordable health care to all the people.


So Canadians use crack now, 'eh ?  Your juvenile view is (ahem) subject to severe doubt.  That is NOT what CBO shows; it's your conclusion based on your biased views.   If you disagree, then point to the CBO evaluation of ALTERNATIVES like my free-market suggestion or the dozens of others.  (hint: they don't exist).  The CBO cannot show there is "no other way' since their charter doesn't allow them to perform the sort of wide-ranging studies you falsely imagine.  The CBO strictly performs static (aka limited & faulty) analyses of proposed & current legislation - NOT broad comparative analyses.

Quote:
The Republicans are left with nothing but having to expose the ugly truth. They don't believe that all Americans are entitled to health care.


LOL - WTF are you doing on a libertarian forum ?  "... entitled to health care.", necessarily means that someone (HC workers) are OBLIGATED to provide those services.  You obviously believe in slavery, and in coercing some to serve others.

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And that's all in the past now. Believe it!


Don't confuse your past with our past - slave-boy.

What I believe is that the US occasionally makes some fairly brilliant turns in favor of individual rights & liberty.  Not often, and not consistently, rarely foreseen, and we generally have to be pushed into it kicking & screaming, but far more often than most anywhere else.  I think Trump is a Jacksonian jack-ass, and Congress is all fubar at the moment, but that is precisely the stage-set for some very serious change.  Whether for good or ill I expect politically wrenching bowel movement of immense proportion in the next 7.5 years.  Who knows what dreams may come ...





  
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Jeff
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 7:43am
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