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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repeal and Replace (Read 2479 times)
kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #10 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 9:41am
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Don_G wrote on Jul 19th, 2017 at 9:19pm:
The Republicans are fu-ked on  health care. You can say you heard it from me first


OMG, you think you said this first????  What an imbecile.  This has been said all along by many on both sides.  It's said every night on the news.  And you think you said it first?  You're completely delusional
  

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kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 9:48am
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kaz:  It's funny how the Republican pundits consider Repeal without Replace a failure.  From everything on the table now, it's the best case.  The "replace" has all been Obamacare with renamed provisions:

stevea:  It's the obvious political calculus. Only ~30% of the populations want's "replace", so career politicians who've been taking votes on meaningless "repeal & replace" are now in a hard spot.  If you want a life-long career as ruler uh in Congress, then you should never ever take any stance on any issue that splits your constituency in half [/quote]

kaz:  Not sure we're disagreeing with this one.  We're both saying that Republicans for the most part are kelp in the ocean on this trying to figure out how to get through it and continue to rule as you accurately say.  Only a few are committed to an outcome of the actual healthcare debate
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kaz:Now if they'd get into cross state sales,

stevea:  Disagree.  The reason that health insurance was ~30% higher in NY & NJ than TX and NM has to do with state laws that make suing medicos for profit much easier.  This forces doctors to carry much heavier insurance and to perform all sorts of 'CYA' procedures to avoid suites.

You can remove the state insurance borders the day you remove the state laws - and IMO that sort of Federalism is exactly the wrong direction for any sort of libertarianism.  No the ppl of Indiana do not need to subsidize NY & NJ ambulance-chasers and scammers.

'loser pays' in civil courts is the easy solution. Each state can do as they please, but should bear the cost & responsibility of their decisions.

kaz:  Ah, the old liberal trick that we get only one thing and that must solve all problems.  Of course cross state sales won't solve the problem of mandates or tort reform.  Here's the trick.  Those should be done too.  But to argue we can't do one without the others is silly.  Solve one problem at a time and keep going.

Cross state sales provide economies of scale.  That's the problem it's intended to solve.  Not every other problem, of which you mentioned a couple legitimate OTHER issues

And you think allowing free trade across state lines is ANTI-libertarian?  That's just whacked.

BTW, read the commerce clause.  This is a legitimate Constitutional power of government now, not like all the stupid crap that isn't that the Federal government keeps taking.  The purpose of the commerce clause was in fact to allow the Feds to reduce trade barriers between the States.

And you think that's un libertarian?  I'm frankly pretty surprised given other points you've posted
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #12 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 9:57am
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kaz:  portability and health care accounts,

steve a:  Ahem - the only reason we need any special 'portability' is b/c most of us get h.insurance from employers, and this is directly due to socialist-FDR meddling in markets and capping wages during WW2.  HC accounts are a socialist bandage on top of a socialist induced wound.

How bout this for a solution -
1/ (re)create competitive markets for medical services - with open/disclosed prices.
2/ (re)create insurance to act as *insurance* and not welfare and not a cafeteria plan.   The idea of covering for pre-existing conditions is completely stupid, like selling auto insurance to cover already crashed cars.  Insurance that covers every dollar (even fractionally) reduces the market incentives and is bad for all.

[Yes, we need to deal with the indigent, and perhaps define some explicit basic level of acceptable HC]

We NEED a market based solution.

kaz:  I like the "ahem" at the beginning.  All I can say is no shit.  But just FYI.  When you leave your job, government forces insurance companies through your employer to drop you.  It's not the insurance company

As for healthcare savings accounts.  Yes, obviously it is a bandaid for a bad system.  And I totally support revamping both our tax and medical system.  But that isn't happening right now and having HC accounts is better than the alternative of not having them.

I do contract work.  In our current system, I can't deduct my health insurance and you can (if you have a traditional employer)

You come back and say no kaz, we need a better system.  That isn't happening, so you're fvcked, sorry man.

I'm smart enough to be able to recognize both short term goals and long term goals and not confuse them

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kaz:  But they have to remove the filibuster to do that and the Republicans don't have the stones.


stevea:  It *seems* that way at first glance, but frankly they are purposely shirking responsibility; creating a pretext for blame diversion - creating an excuse. 2 or 4 years from now, then the Reps no longer rule Congress they will be whinging about how they couldn't get 51 or 60+ votes and therefore ....  you  should vote for even more feckless Reps.  I believe it's calculated - not a lack of will.

kaz:  I'm not sure I see your point as a contradiction.  You seem to have restated what I said.  Republicans are just looking for a way out where they remain in power.  They are afraid to remove the filibuster because that removes their excuses

  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #13 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 10:03am
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kaz:Republicans are the battered wife party.  Democrats have owned their sorry asses so long they don't know how to be the majority.

stavea:  Hard to get 'lubed up' over Mcconnell, but again - I don't think it's lack of will.  The Rep party is fractured and the Dem party is totally cracked (in every sense).  This is the perfect scenario for a third party.

kaz:  Again, I don't disagree with what you're saying and I don't really see as conflicting with what I said


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kaz:It's so stupid they won't remove the filibuster

stevea:  Cuz then they'd have to do something and that WILL lose them votes.  The Dems understood perfectly that PPACA/O-care is an addictive drug, and here even 6-7 years later it's ugly work to get the addicts off it, and a lot of 'tough love' is needed.  Making 'someone-else' take responsibility for your HC is just the first step in irresponsibility.

LBJs 'Great Society' notion in the 1960s was sold on humanitarian grounds, and I don't argue that proponents weren't sincere, but the result is dead-obvious to anyone willing to remove the blinders.   The poor & esp Blacks became dependent on handouts and special programs (redistribution) and the programs grew to the sky, and infantilized and prevented self-actualization & fulfillment for millions (while also taking from millions) and moving massive power to DC.  PP-ACA/Ocare is just a much bigger version of this.  They want to infantilize YOU this time, by controlling 1/6th of the economy - a critical fraction that will bloom into a total government take-over.

kaz:  I agree with many of your points here.  But:

1)  The idea that Repblicans will go down if they do what they campaigned for and Trump ran on (Obamacare repeal) is retarded

2)  The idea the new voters who appeared for Trump will disappear again if they don't repeal Obamacare is a real threat

The Republicans are cowards and they are being stupid by not removing the filibuster and implementing actual market reforms, like the ones that I listed, is going to burn them.  Then again I thought Trump would lose, even to Hillary.  Still, I have my opinion


  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #14 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 11:49am
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stevea wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 12:34am:
Maybe - that's what my political calculus tells me is most likely - but you failed to learn the primary lesson of history: you can't lose until you stop fighting, and we're still fighting.   I understand that you, as a collar wearing state-slave, have some personal interest in seeing others fail and befall your fate, but that's your self-hate talking.


I appreciate hearing your ideas steve but let's get something corrected here to begin with. It's not true that you only lose when you stop fighting. You lose first and then stop fighting. It's a simple concept steve, that holds true in war as well as in political fights. So we'll watch that prove itself out.

Quote:
I felt like bashing a (former) friend in the face last week when he suggested single-payer was a good-idea.   This is a classic case of ignorant bias in favor of central-solutions and against distributed solutions.   Amazing to me that someone  with a STEM degree can be so stupid. 


There are going to be many more you will feel like bashing in the face steve. I won't bother advising you to not do it, or do it. I can see positive results for you in both cases.


Quote:
Free-stuff stolen from others (aka political booty) is always attractive to the recipient; the questions is one of morality and sustainability.   We have a pretty good "taste" of how handouts & redistribution have served the indigent & Black and various minority communities in the past 55yrs.  The agreement is that YOU get a freebie from "the party" in exchange for votes to advance our other ideology - like failed, forced Union controlled schools where we warehouse your children, give them no useful education, and doom them to a life of blackmarket crime & violence.  It's a Faustian bargain, and like you, I have no great faith the US will avoid hitting bottom.


Your doom and gloom of hitting bottom isn't very encouraging. Is it that you would rather see your country hit bottom than see all the people with good affordable health care, as the rest of the world's civilized countries enjoy? You mention 'blacks' so I see that some of your problem is racism.


Quote:
Almost certainly (and I read it elsewhere many place first) (and I don't greatly care as 95% of Reps are Lizard ppl), but it appears to me the Dems are perhaps even more crappity smacked.  What about ~30% of Dems totally appalled that Wasserman-Schultz-Phlegm rail-roading Sanders, or Donna Brazile violating every ethic to promote Hillery or Hillary's many scoff-law issues, or the DNC failing to even turn over their server to FBI to investigate vs their massively overblow claims  ?  At some point, even the dogs can't eat that food.


US corruption runs deep through both big parties. I understand your pain but I have a solution to offer from Canada with luv. Ask me sometime!

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The two parties are cracking up badly, and that suggests a new re-alignment is possible,


That's exactly what I've been telling this forum, but I see it as more of a movement toward that which Bernie Sanders hinted at. Again, ask me sometime.


Quote:
So Canadians use crack now, 'eh ?  Your juvenile view is (ahem) subject to severe doubt.  That is NOT what CBO shows; it's your conclusion based on your biased views.   If you disagree, then point to the CBO evaluation of ALTERNATIVES like my free-market suggestion or the dozens of others.  (hint: they don't exist).  The CBO cannot show there is "no other way' since their charter doesn't allow them to perform the sort of wide-ranging studies you falsely imagine.  The CBO strictly performs static (aka limited & faulty) analyses of proposed & current legislation - NOT broad comparative analyses.


I didn't say that your CBO showed anything. I suggested that the R's haven't found another solution to universal health care yet, and they won't. It is written steve!


Quote:
LOL - WTF are you doing on a libertarian forum ?  "... entitled to health care.", necessarily means that someone (HC workers) are OBLIGATED to provide those services.  You obviously believe in slavery, and in coercing some to serve others.


libertarian values are human values and everybody has a right to health care. That's the sensible and possible side of the politics of libertarians. All the nonsense such as flat taxes, etc., no income tax, blah, blah, must go for it to survive and be seen as a possible outcome.


Quote:
Don't confuse your past with our past - slave-boy.

What I believe is that the US occasionally makes some fairly brilliant turns in favor of individual rights & liberty.  Not often, and not consistently, rarely foreseen, and we generally have to be pushed into it kicking & screaming, but far more often than most anywhere else.  I think Trump is a Jacksonian jack-ass, and Congress is all fubar at the moment, but that is precisely the stage-set for some very serious change.  Whether for good or ill I expect politically wrenching bowel movement of immense proportion in the next 7.5 years.  Who knows what dreams may come ...


Change is what I've been trying to tell the people on this board too. And again, change such that Trump promised and didn't deliver and change that Bernie probably would have worked to begin bringing but the Dems hijacked him in favour of the wicked witch.

Good discussion steve. We've been needing to get to details.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #15 - Jul 20th, 2017 at 4:36pm
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Don_G wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 11:49am:
Change is what I've been trying to tell the people on this board too. And again, change such that Trump promised and didn't deliver and change that Bernie probably would have worked to begin bringing but the Dems hijacked him in favor of the wicked witch.
You worked for their professed ideals all your life, and they crappity smacked you? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Dumbshit.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #16 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 20th, 2017 at 4:36pm:
You worked for their professed ideals all your life, and they crappity smacked you?

Dumbshit.


In fact they didn't fu-k me. What can I say? It's worked out very well for me and I owe the system dearly. But also, my consideration has to be for my fellow Canadians too and I firmly believe that we have it about as good as it gets.

Granted, in our political system the pendulum swings so it sometimes gets a little better and sometimes it gets a little worse.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #17 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Don_G wrote on Jul 21st, 2017 at 12:48pm:
In fact they didn't fu-k me. What can I say? It's worked out very well for me and I owe the system dearly.
You should be investigated and indicted and hung if convicted.

Whatever "the system" did for you was paid for by people like me. You robbed us, at best. Cry
  
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Don_G
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #18 - Jul 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 21st, 2017 at 4:27pm:
You should be investigated and indicted and hung if convicted.

Whatever "the system" did for you was paid for by people like me. You robbed us, at best. Cry


Time for another break jeffy, you're starting to lose it again.
  
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Re: Repeal and Replace
Reply #19 - Jul 22nd, 2017 at 5:13pm
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Don_G wrote on Jul 21st, 2017 at 8:46pm:
Time for another break jeffy, you're starting to lose it again.
All my life I paid for what "the system" did no matter how foolish or counterproductive or downright bad it was...

And you say the very same "system" has rewarded you?

Is that fair?
  
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