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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are Electric Cars Laughable? (Read 1408 times)
Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #40 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:10pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 7:32am:
It's part of this culture of ignorant paranoia .  The evil "they" are always "cronies" or "elites" or "fat cats" or "the 1%".   Ppl w/o evidence like to use bigoted & biased characterizations of whomever they dislike.


I'm with you so far.

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There really are problems with regulatory capture, and political influence by concentrated interests (like Musk, or  bigAg or bigPharma) but this is 100% a problem of corrupt or more often ignorant government, and not with those self-interested parties trying to gain advantage.   We should naturally EXPECT that Musk/Tesla or ConAgra(fuel-ethanol) should try to gain market advantage over others; that is exactly the charter of their businesses.    [quote]The flaw is IMO 100% in government that allows this to happen instead of creating a basis for more open competitive markets.


I'm no stranger to what motivates business, or even what they are required to do by law in order to serve the interests of their shareholder. You don't have to get into those details with me; we can just skip over that and get to the guts of the issue.

Where I disagree with you is in your government giving big business a leg up, while ignoring the plight of the people. It's not sustainable and you will find out if you ask the people. The people right here on this board!

Your country has likely created the basis of which you speak, for more open competition, than any other country in the world.

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You are using valid points on ethanol fuel use to make a point. But it's your inventing of points that you are wrongly judging I would argue. And the same goes for incentives for plug in cars. They're both diversions from the main topic and I don't hook into them. You have probably attempted to use that kind of pap because you haven't made yourself familiar with my arguments. Do you understand what I'm saying?

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Pollution really is an issue, and polluting the atmosphere or waterways is a tragedy of the commons, since we have no way to assign individual ownership or assert rights otherwise; it's a social problem.


Yes!

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The problem IMO is that politicians are just as ignorant of economics as voters, and they hold the same anti-market biases that Bryan Caplan describes so well.
http://reason.com/archives/2007/09/26/the-4-boneheaded-biases-of-stu


Ignorance of economics is a spin-off issue from global warming or climate change. I am of the opinion that we can't take global economics into consideration for the purpose of dealing with anthropogenic climate change. That's my opinion at least, but possibly not yours. And for that reason I would be wasting time reading a link that deals with economic backlash over doing the right thing.

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Simplistic thinkers actually BELIEVE that centralized solutions are needed and that distributed market based solutions are bad; and this includes nearly all politicians.  So it makes logical sense that ignorant politicians, or honest politicians accurately representing their ignorant constituents, prefer to subsidize electric cars, or grain->ethanol schemes (even tho' neither actually improves the environment).


First off, I believe that your system of taking away power from the feds and giving it to the individual states is nothing more than a ploy to prevent dealing with large important issues such as climate change. And a lot of others too!

I have no argument over the fact that some politicians and constituents are ignorant. I would maintain though that some politicians are very much aware of AGM and are acting in accordance. Lucky them they don't have to compromise themselves.

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A much better class of solution is to create a Pigouvian tax that actually taxes the pollution or other negative externality and bundles the cost into free-markets.


Yes.

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  Then the market can operate to create a more optimal use of resources. I'm not saying the Pigouvian taxes don't have issues, like deciding the level of tax w/o any countervailing market value or avoiding political ideology from driving the tax.


I have to point out to you (probably don't) that the free market is constructed in a way to pass on taxes to consumers.

How can you have complete faith in the free market when you know that big oil doesn't adhere to market principles. For instance, when the cost of a barrel of oil was over $120 per, the cost of gas at the pump was $1.25 a litre. Now that the price/barrel is bouncing around 50/60, the price of gas at the pump is $1.25 a litre.

My whole argument revolves around one simple issue: Your government has given a leg up to big corps, at the expense of the ordinary people. That's why your system is on the verge of collapse, due to nothing short of revolution! Or at least that's the story I get from Americans?

If you're been reading my comments on this forum then you couldn't have missed my repeated references to 'socially responsible capitalism'. The only reply I ever got out of that is a condemnation of social responsibilities of government.

Are you prepared to do better than that? Do you take the meaning of the word, 'progressive' as literal. (con't)
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #41 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:12pm
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(con't) If so then we can discuss a lot of issues in a cool and sane way. And by doing that we will both serve our objectives of making something good come out of this forum.

I think Land of Freedom will take note and contribute too!
  
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kaz
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #42 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:34pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:12pm:
I think Land of Freedom will take note and contribute too!


Signs are he's really got his eye on you.  Remember how he deleted your sexual posts about Chief's mother?  Freedom may be considering working for you on the site
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #43 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 4:25pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:10pm:
Where I disagree with you is in your government giving big business a leg up, while ignoring the plight of the people.
So you think unlimited government is good, as long as it serves "the people".

The problem is, unlimited governments always serve themselves first, then their friends and families.

"the people" end up paying for it all. It's been the same since Medieval times.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #44 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 4:25pm:
So you think unlimited government is good, as long as it serves "the people".


No, good government isn't unlimited, but thanks for showing interest.

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The problem is, unlimited governments always serve themselves first, then their friends and families.


I don't think that's accurately describing unlimited government. What do you think the real description would be? It's not something I've considered a great deal. For example, I don't consider the Trump government fits your description even though he employs family.

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"the people" end up paying for it all. It's been the same since Medieval times.


Yes, the people pay for bad government, unlimited government (whatever that means), and socially irresponsible government.

You have to get over your idea that the words, socially responsible' mean something bad. By definition those words mean something good. That's such a simple concept that it's not worth arguing Jeff.
  
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kaz
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #45 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:35pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:18pm:
No, good government isn't unlimited, but thanks for showing interest.


I don't think that's accurately describing unlimited government. What do you think the real description would be? It's not something I've considered a great deal. For example, I don't consider the Trump government fits your description even though he employs family.


Yes, the people pay for bad government, unlimited government (whatever that means), and socially irresponsible government.

You have to get over your idea that the words, socially responsible' mean something bad. By definition those words mean something good. That's such a simple concept that it's not worth arguing Jeff.


No one sees you, Burt, you're amazing!

  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #46 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:42pm
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Which country leads the world in electric cars?

Which country is lagging behind mainly because of bad attitudes tooward fixing climate change?

Which country is a close third to the two world leaders?
  
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kaz
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #47 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:17pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:42pm:
Which country leads the world in electric cars?

Which country is lagging behind mainly because of bad attitudes tooward fixing climate change?

Which country is a close third to the two world leaders?


Sweden
Canada
Canada is like 20th
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #48 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:41am
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:42pm:
Which country leads the world in electric cars?

Why do you think that's important? Do you know how much more energy it takes to produce an electric car than it does to produce a car with an internal combustion engine? That's one of the reasons (besides that electric cars use rare and expensive materials not needed in conventional cars) that electric cars, even with government subsidies, cost more.
  
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stevea
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #49 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 8:45am
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Don_G wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 2:10pm:
...

Where I disagree with you is in your government giving big business a leg up, while ignoring the plight of the people. ...


I don't get your meaning.  I did not suggest that government SHOULD advantage any business over any other interest - just the opposite - they should be dead-neutral and generally avoid meddling in markets for advantage of any party.   "Plight of the people" stinks of socialist ideology - There are scare few broad interests that don't also harm some people.


Quote:
You are using valid points on ethanol fuel use to make a point. But it's your inventing of points that you are wrongly judging I would argue. And the same goes for incentives for plug in cars. They're both diversions from the main topic and...


The topic is whether EVs are a joke.  Specifically are the practical transportation.
YOU on post #5 diverted to the imaginary topic of oil subsidies; you are vending the pap her.


ALL subsidies create market distortions and economic inefficiency and I am therefore against them quite broadly.
The FACTS are the oil is not subsidized, but the EVs, the topic of this thread, are heavily subsidized.
If the subsidy never existed, then EVs would be more clearly recognized as economically impractical, and environmentally unsound.  I've directly addressed the topic of this thread, you have not.

Corn-ethanol is a side-topic, an example of another very harmful subsidy - both economically and environmentally.

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Ignorance of economics is a spin-off issue from global warming or climate change.


No! It is absolutely central to understanding why many social solution's of government fail so badly.

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I am of the opinion that we can't take global economics into consideration for the purpose of dealing with anthropogenic climate change. That's my opinion at least, but possibly not yours.


My opinion, also a large list of economists incl some Nobel winners is  that folding the negative externality cost of pollution into the product by a Pigouvian tax doesn't destroy economic efficiency the way that centrally planned subsidies and regulation do.

You are free to be as ignorant and dismissive as you choose, but let's not pretend that's part of rational debate or even sound thinking.


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And for that reason I would be wasting time reading a link that deals with economic backlash over doing the right thing.


That ISN'T the topic of the link at all - you closed-minded ignoramus.

Your "doing the right thing" idea is the problem.   There is no one right thing, and you cannot evaluate the options w/o economic consideration.  You can't compare the options w/o price signalling produced by markets.  This is why you central-planner "I know whats best" types fail.


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First off, I believe that your system of taking away power from the feds and giving it to the individual states...!


WTF?  I NEVER advocated giving states any authority related to this thread. - you are imaging things.


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I have no argument over the fact that some politicians and constituents are ignorant. I would maintain though that some politicians are very much aware of AGM and are acting in accordance. Lucky them they don't have to compromise themselves.


Being aware of AGW doesn't create any understanding of how to address it efficiently; read the link.  At least TRY to learn something.

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I have to point out to you (probably don't) that the free market is constructed in a way to pass on taxes to consumers.


Yes- or you can tax the consumer directly,  and then the consumer can choose to use the taxed item or not by trading off other value.  It's a MARKET solution that creates efficiency.

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