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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are Electric Cars Laughable? (Read 1407 times)
stevea
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #50 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:33am
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(cont...)

Quote:
How can you have complete faith in the free market when you know that big oil doesn't adhere to market principles. For instance, when the cost of a barrel of oil was over $120 per, the cost of gas at the pump was $1.25 a litre. Now that the price/barrel is bouncing around 50/60, the price of gas at the pump is $1.25 a litre.


I have complete faith that competitive markets arrive at an efficient market price, and that the price signals to market participants to compare their alternatives. Why - b/c it's virtually tautologically true unless people act against their own interests and also well-evidenced.

Your example proves nothing except that you believe in conspiracy theories.  Big oil has no choice but to adhere to market discipline same as you and I.   Here is the evidence that your theory is crack-pot:
http://www.macrotrends.net/2501/crude-oil-vs-gasoline-prices-chart.



Quote:
My whole argument revolves around one simple issue: Your government has given a leg up to big corps, at the expense of the ordinary people.

A claim that appears to be factually false.  BigOil isn't getting any such subsidy.

Now if you want to discuss BigPharma getting LT patents, government grants of monopoly, that cause market failure, then I would agree ythat this COULD be against the public interest.  However that position is reduced by the fact there would be no advanced pharma at all w/o patents or a similar means of compensation.

Short Answer - drop the anti-biz paranoia, it's mostly in your head.

Quote:
That's why your system is on the verge of collapse, due to nothing short of revolution! Or at least that's the story I get from Americans?


You're drinking some foul bathwater there dude.  No collapse is imminent.


Quote:
If you're been reading my comments on this forum then you couldn't have missed my repeated references to 'socially responsible capitalism'. The only reply I ever got out of that is a condemnation of social responsibilities of government.


No - I haven't really tracked your comments that closely, but making self-contradictory terms isn't making a case.

'Capitalism' is nothing but private owner ship of production.  That's the definition.  'Socially Responsible' suggests some sort of fuzzy-thinking about what should be done according to "the enlightened ones" (who really don't exist).

No - In a competitive marker you will find capitalists supplying whatever consumers want.  Corporation are restricted to acting w/in the law, but aside from that they will display the full range of options the market demands.  For example where I live I can choose my electric supplier and can evaluate the supplier based on the type/cleanness of the power they produce.  Then it's up to me to be socially responsible or not.

What you likely want is to restrict parties, not just to lawful activities, but to avoid certain activities you believe are harmful.  That's called an infringement of liberty from where I sit.


Quote:
Are you prepared to do better than that?


I've bested you in every sense already.  You can't even address my actual argument. You make up imagined things I never suggested.  You prefer to make ignorant assumptions about links you've failed to examine.


Quote:
Do you take the meaning of the word, 'progressive' as literal. [cont]  If so then we can discuss a lot of issues in a cool and sane way. And by doing that we will both serve our objectives of making something good come out of this forum.


Of course I don't accept that - that's a ridiculous demand for debate.    Are you willing to accept that I am always right ?  Just preposterous thinking - you are a laugh.

'Progressive' is a term self-applied to groups and ideas that adherent IMAGINE are part of social progress.  The flaw is that social progress is a purely subjective notion and usually evolves from some sort of group self-interest.

Progressives' are directly responsible for ideas like eugenics, extermination of inferior races and forced sterilization of undesirable people.  It's nothing but a form of tribalism - "we're right and we'er superior, so we get to decide".  This is no different from the KKK with a sugar coating of pseudo-science.   They use of terms like "social justice" are purposely fuzzy, b/c it means whatever they choose at the moment, so they can use it as a demagogic meme to get their way over others.

As a libertarian of course I insist that taking away personal liberty, as Progressives prefer, isn't progress at all.
  
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kaz
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #51 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 10:28am
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stevea wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:33am:
I have complete faith that competitive markets arrive at an efficient market price, and that the price signals to market participants to compare their alternatives. Why - b/c it's virtually tautologically true unless people act against their own interests and also well-evidenced


He's right that free markets aren't working in Canada.  Where he's wrong is that he blames the markets when the problem is that Canada is socialist. 

He also thinks that companies pay taxes.  We don't, we collect it from our customers.  The Canadian gas taxes are embedded in the price.  The taxes in socialist countries dwarf the cost of the actual oil.

Also, Canada doesn't import gas because they are a large net exporter.  Again being a socialist country means that Canadian oil companies can only sell gas for what government allows them too.

In the US, pump prices do go up and down with oil prices, so most Americans won't know what he's talking about when he points out that in Canada, they do not unless the government decides to allow them to
  

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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #52 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 12:14pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:33am:
(cont...)

I have complete faith that competitive markets arrive at an efficient market price, and that the price signals to market participants to compare their alternatives. Why - b/c it's virtually tautologically true unless people act against their own interests and also well-evidenced.


I know you have complete faith. That can be taken as a statement of fact. But the rest is just a statement and no rebuttal to my example. I won't come up with more examples now until you deal with the first one.

Quote:
Your example proves nothing except that you believe in conspiracy theories.


Another statement but starting to stoop to insulting.

Quote:
  Big oil has no choice but to adhere to market discipline same as you and I.   Here is the evidence that your theory is crack-pot:
http://www.macrotrends.net/2501/crude-oil-vs-gasoline-prices-chart.


It's imaginative but it doesn't serve to rebut the facts as they exist. Why are libertarians needing to defend oil companies? The two reasons I can think of are:
1. They oppose alternatives to petroleum based energy
2. They don't subscribe to AGW.

Quote:
A claim that appears to be factually false.  BigOil isn't getting any such subsidy.


You've been given enough links by others already so I won't add mine. Your submission is just as false as the notion that big business is taxed at 35%. While true on the face of it, it's easily proven false by a quick look at their bottom line. And that doesn't even need to take into account what is hidden in the Bahamas.

Quote:
Now if you want to discuss BigPharma getting LT patents, government grants of monopoly, that cause market failure, then I would agree ythat this COULD be against the public interest.  However that position is reduced by the fact there would be no advanced pharma at all w/o patents or a similar means of compensation.


I didn't want to discuss it but I understand your attempt to use it as another example to serve your talking points on bigoil.
I'm not in agreement but I won't deviate onto that at this time.

[quote[Short Answer - drop the anti-biz paranoia, it's mostly in your head. [/quote]

Short answer: insults are an indication of frustration toward others whose politics are far distant from your own. Sorry, I didn't think you would get there so quickly. Come back!


Quote:
You're drinking some foul bathwater there dude.  No collapse is imminent.


Sadly, the same Steve.


Quote:
No - I haven't really tracked your comments that closely, but making self-contradictory terms isn't making a case.


Example of such?

Quote:
'Capitalism' is nothing but private owner ship of production.  That's the definition.  'Socially Responsible' suggests some sort of fuzzy-thinking about what should be done according to "the enlightened ones" (who really don't exist).


I only wanted to hear you accept the words, 'socially responsible'. They only have one meaning. You seem to be an educated person so I'll use an example from classic literature. Do you remember Fezziwig from 'A Christmas Carol'?

Quote:
No - In a competitive marker you will find capitalists supplying whatever consumers want.  Corporation are restricted to acting w/in the law, but aside from that they will display the full range of options the market demands.  For example where I live I can choose my electric supplier and can evaluate the supplier based on the type/cleanness of the power they produce.  Then it's up to me to be socially responsible or not.


Laws are necessary in order to forc corporations to act within the law. One of the most famous examples of a corporation not acting within the law was the case of a power company poisoning citizens with dangerous chemicals in their drinking water which cause Cancers in the citizens and their children. An extreme result of the lack of social responsibility.

Quote:
What you likely want is to restrict parties, not just to lawful activities, but to avoid certain activities you believe are harmful.  That's called an infringement of liberty from where I sit.


I don't think you know what I 'likely' want. You would need to quote some  (con't)
  
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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #53 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 12:27pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:33am:
(cont...)
(con't ) some examples.



[quote]I've bested you in every sense already.  You can't even address my actual argument. You make up imagined things I never suggested.  You prefer to make ignorant assumptions about links you've failed to examine.


I don't agree that you've bested me yet. You've certainly become insulting and I think that's indicating some frustration. I'll do my part in helping on that. Can you keep it shorter so I can reply in one post? Try shorter posts.



Quote:
Of course I don't accept that - that's a ridiculous demand for debate.    Are you willing to accept that I am always right ?  Just preposterous thinking - you are a laugh.


That doesn't add to your argument Steve.

Quote:
'Progressive' is a term self-applied to groups and ideas that adherent IMAGINE are part of social progress.  The flaw is that social progress is a purely subjective notion and usually evolves from some sort of group self-interest.

I only use the word 'progressive' in it's proper meaning.

[quote]Progressives' are directly responsible for ideas like eugenics, extermination of inferior races and forced sterilization of undesirable people.  It's nothing but a form of tribalism - "we're right and we'er superior, so we get to decide".  This is no different from the KKK with a sugar coating of pseudo-science.   They use of terms like "social justice" are purposely fuzzy, b/c it means whatever they choose at the moment, so they can use it as a demagogic meme to get their way over others.


Now you've gone right off the rails. That's not conducive to a rational conversation.

Quote:
As a libertarian of course I insist that taking away personal liberty, as Progressives prefer, isn't progress at all.


Make your case by using the word, leftists, or liberals and I'll understand what you're saying.

I would prefer to have a conversation with you so I could suggest to you some of my ideas with which you can attain the liberty you desire. I think you have to accept more of the means in order to achieve the end. I'll leave it up to you on whether you want to do that with me or not.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #54 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 5:08pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 10:28am:
The Canadian gas taxes are embedded in the price.  The taxes in socialist countries dwarf the cost of the actual oil.
The taxes here dwarf the profits of the people who find the gas and oil, pay (in many ways) to extract it and ship it and refine it and distribute it... And the people who simply collect 25-30% of the cost to consumers as taxes call the people who do all the work "greedy" if they make 10% profit on their investment. Cry
  
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #55 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 5:09pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 12:27pm:
Make your case by using the word, leftists, or liberals and I'll understand what you're saying.


You're a completely ignorant dork. I rest my case. Grin
  
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kaz
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #56 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 5:31pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 5:08pm:
The taxes here dwarf the profits of the people who find the gas and oil, pay (in many ways) to extract it and ship it and refine it and distribute it... And the people who simply collect 25-30% of the cost to consumers as taxes call the people who do all the work "greedy" if they make 10% profit on their investment. Cry


True, government makes more money from oil than the people who own the companies that produce it
  

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Don_G
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #57 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:24pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:33am:
(cont...)


I have complete faith that competitive markets arrive at an efficient market price, and that the price signals to market participants to compare their alternatives. Why - b/c it's virtually tautologically true unless people act against their own interests and also well-evidenced.

Your example proves nothing except that you believe in conspiracy theories.  Big oil has no choice but to adhere to market discipline same as you and I.   Here is the evidence that your theory is crack-pot:
http://www.macrotrends.net/2501/crude-oil-vs-gasoline-prices-chart.



A claim that appears to be factually false.  BigOil isn't getting any such subsidy.

Now if you want to discuss BigPharma getting LT patents, government grants of monopoly, that cause market failure, then I would agree ythat this COULD be against the public interest.  However that position is reduced by the fact there would be no advanced pharma at all w/o patents or a similar means of compensation.

Short Answer - drop the anti-biz paranoia, it's mostly in your head.


You're drinking some foul bathwater there dude.  No collapse is imminent.



No - I haven't really tracked your comments that closely, but making self-contradictory terms isn't making a case.

'Capitalism' is nothing but private owner ship of production.  That's the definition.  'Socially Responsible' suggests some sort of fuzzy-thinking about what should be done according to "the enlightened ones" (who really don't exist).

No - In a competitive marker you will find capitalists supplying whatever consumers want.  Corporation are restricted to acting w/in the law, but aside from that they will display the full range of options the market demands.  For example where I live I can choose my electric supplier and can evaluate the supplier based on the type/cleanness of the power they produce.  Then it's up to me to be socially responsible or not.

What you likely want is to restrict parties, not just to lawful activities, but to avoid certain activities you believe are harmful.  That's called an infringement of liberty from where I sit.



I've bested you in every sense already.  You can't even address my actual argument. You make up imagined things I never suggested.  You prefer to make ignorant assumptions about links you've failed to examine.



Of course I don't accept that - that's a ridiculous demand for debate.    Are you willing to accept that I am always right ?  Just preposterous thinking - you are a laugh.

'Progressive' is a term self-applied to groups and ideas that adherent IMAGINE are part of social progress.  The flaw is that social progress is a purely subjective notion and usually evolves from some sort of group self-interest.

Progressives' are directly responsible for ideas like eugenics, extermination of inferior races and forced sterilization of undesirable people.  It's nothing but a form of tribalism - "we're right and we'er superior, so we get to decide".  This is no different from the KKK with a sugar coating of pseudo-science.   They use of terms like "social justice" are purposely fuzzy, b/c it means whatever they choose at the moment, so they can use it as a demagogic meme to get their way over others.

As a libertarian of course I insist that taking away personal liberty, as Progressives prefer, isn't progress at all.


Steve, I thought I had finally found a coolheaded and sane libertarian.

Now I'm fully convinced that is a contradiction of terms. No such thing exists. The libertarian agenda can't possibly attract normal people who are seriously trying to change things for the better. There is no moderate approach to politics with libertarians, they're completely extremist with not a hope in hell of ever being noticed by the mainstream.

The change will not be due to libertarians or people like Ron Paul or Rand Paul. It will be a change that moves your country to the left, with a leader somewhat like Bernie.

Besides that Steve, it's not my idea that your country is teetering on the edge of revolution, it's the people on this board that have promoted the idea. To be believed, or to be taken with a grain of salt? Well, they're libertarians!.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #58 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:28pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 5:31pm:
True, government makes more money from oil than the people who own the companies that produce it
Far more. Exponentially more. And they promised to do good things with it, like give us good safe roads adequate to the traffic they carry. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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Re: Are Electric Cars Laughable?
Reply #59 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:32pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 6:24pm:
Steve, I thought I had finally found a coolheaded and sane libertarian.

Now I'm fully convinced that is a contradiction of terms. No such thing exists.
You're probably right. I bet every libertarian/classic liberal alive would say you are an ignorant dork. Grin Some would emphasize the statement with tacky emoticons... Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin (Those would be your low class redneck type libertarians/classic liberals... The high class one's will tell you straight out to crappity smack off.) Grin
  
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