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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Oil subsidies (Read 1214 times)
ahhell
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Oil subsidies
Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:31pm
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I've heard a lot of talk from lefty about subsidies to oil companies that skew the market away from renewable energy.  When ever I've looked into it does just seem like the same sort of "subsidies" that just about every business gets.  Mostly tax write offs. 

Any actually know of any specific subsidies that Oil/coal/natural gas producers get that a wind farm wouldn't? 

Please limit the discussion to the US or Canada, a lot of developing economies subsidize consumers of fuel, either with price supports or the state run oil companies sells gas at below market rates.

EDIT:

I'm looking for anything that might conceivably be called a subsidy.  So, tax breaks, friendly regulation, regulation unfriendly to competitors, whatever.
« Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:41pm by ahhell »  
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Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #1 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:35pm
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ahhell wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:31pm:
Please limit the discussion to the US or Canada, a lot of developing economies subsidize consumers of fuel...
You mean "developing" countries like Venezuela and Saudi Arabia? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

What makes you want to place the U.S. and Canada in the same government boat? Roll Eyes
  
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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #2 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:00pm
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ahhell wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:31pm:
Any actually know of any specific subsidies that Oil/coal/natural gas producers get that a wind farm wouldn't? 


Writing off your expenses are not "subsidies."  We tax profit, not revenue.

I realize you're arguing the point that I did.  I still don't like calling writing off your expenses "subsidies"
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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ahhell
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #3 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:15pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:00pm:
Writing off your expenses are not "subsidies."  We tax profit, not revenue.

I realize you're arguing the point that I did.  I still don't like calling writing off your expenses "subsidies"
I get it.  There is a debate worth having about what are appropriate right write offs and I have little doubt that some of what is allowed is really only available to a limited set of businesses.  For the sake of this discussion, I would like to include tax right write offs so specific that only a fossil fuel company can use them.   Its not a subsidy really but it is something that gives an advantage to fossil fuel developers over say a solar power company.

@Jeff, why not include Canada?  We have similar economic models.  I was really thinking of India but Venezuela and Saudi Arabia and Iran all count to.


Edit to correct typo.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #4 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:30pm
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ahhell wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:15pm:
I get it.  There is a debate worth having about what are appropriate right offs...
Not really. If you had to spend $75,000 to gross $85,000, there isn't much question that you earned $10,000 for your efforts.

BTW dummy, it's "write offs" Grin
  
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ahhell
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #5 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 6:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:30pm:
Not really. If you had to spend $75,000 to gross $85,000, there isn't much question that you earned $10,000 for your efforts.

BTW dummy, it's "write offs" Grin
That I agree on but can you also say that since your tanker truck is now worth 10K less than it was last year, you can claim you spent 75k+10k to operate your business and thus claim zero profit?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #6 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 8:51pm
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ahhell wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 6:02pm:
That I agree on but can you also say that since your tanker truck is now worth 10K less than it was last year, you can claim you spent 75k+10k to operate your business and thus claim zero profit?
Why not? If you can't do that, you have to pay taxes on the $10,000 profit every year until your truck is worth nothing and you need to buy a new truck to stay in business, at which point maybe you can't afford a new truck. Cry

The only problem I see is not applying the same laws to everybody.
If my wages, that I earn with tools I have to buy  myself, are going to be taxed as "income", then I must be allowed to claim their depreciation. And I must also be allowed to claim  my cost of realizing any "income" as a deduction too, just like any other enterprise that earns "income". That means the expense of keeping myself alive to earn wages should be deductible, as should the cost of getting myself to and from work etc.
  
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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #7 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 8:51pm:
Why not? If you can't do that, you have to pay taxes on the $10,000 profit every year until your truck is worth nothing and you need to buy a new truck to stay in business, at which point maybe you can't afford a new truck. Cry

The only problem I see is not applying the same laws to everybody.
If my wages, that I earn with tools I have to buy  myself, are going to be taxed as "income", then I must be allowed to claim their depreciation. And I must also be allowed to claim  my cost of realizing any "income" as a deduction too, just like any other enterprise that earns "income". That means the expense of keeping myself alive to earn wages should be deductible, as should the cost of getting myself to and from work etc.


Sure, put your employer out of business, they fire you, and you're going to do what now?  So you thought classic liberal meant socialist?

As for tools you have to buy yourself, no idea what you're talking about
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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The Opposition
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #8 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 10:32pm
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When the lefties are wrong, they're right. That's why they call them left.

The best argument (and I think a valid one) in favour of their cause here is that "green" energy is the one getting ridiculous subsidies. It will never be forced to earn its own, and like an infant given a set of robotic legs early on, it will never learn to stand.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 8:30am
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kaz wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:02pm:
Sure, put your employer out of business, they fire you, and you're going to do what now?  So you thought classic liberal meant socialist?

As for tools you have to buy yourself, no idea what you're talking about
Taxes and regulations put lots of small businesses out of business.

I'm a mechanic working for an airline. I buy tools to make my job possible. The company provides expensive and specialty tools, but I am expected as part of my job to have quite a few tools of my own.
  
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