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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Oil subsidies (Read 510 times)
Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #60 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 5:18pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 1:08pm:
Basically it's English majors and journalists doing math. 
They don't do any better in the field of political economy or ethics or philosophy, but they imagine that because they have a Doctorate Degree in Transgender Studies that they are competent to tell us what to do. Cheesy
  
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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #61 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 5:13pm:
Thanks kaz, it's rare to hear anyone articulate this. Even more rare to hear it articulated so well.


Thanks!  It had to be pointed out
  

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stevea
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #62 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am
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kaz wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 9:20am:
I didn't assume anything, you said you didn't understand that.  Here you go:
[...]
You listed taxes which are ALL baked into the prices of products we buy, then included taxing the price of products we buy with a list of other taxes which are baked into the prices of products we buy.


You are just wrong as hell.  You DID PRESUME when you wrote ....

Quote:
What you seem to be missing is that taxes are already embedded in the price of products you buy.


ALL taxes on factors of production become part of the (total) sale price.  Taxes on wages and corporate profits of course are part of the product sale price.  Nothing I said contradicted that.  You falsely PRESUMED I didn't understand your grade-school level comment.  You are just being insulting.

Where YOUR argument falls is that SALES TAX or a VAT is a tax on CONSUMPTION NOT PRODUCTION.  These may or may not be collected by the seller, but they are distinct from the sale price.  These have notably different impact on behavior, and taxation.   Capital saved (income not consumed) goes untaxed till later consumed, and taxes evaporate on exports - sales outside the taxing jurisdiction.  Anyone who has lived near the border of a no-sales-tax state knows how to evade this tax.  Tax evasion become easier w/ the FAIR tax which only taxes transaction on new items.

Quote:
The reason to tax sales is because ALL TAXES ARE SALES TAXES.


NO - that is not the definition nor meaning of the term.   A tax on sales (consumption) has a different impact on behavior than a tax in income or a tax on raw materials or corporate profits (production).  You imagine that a sales tax is part of the price since we (at the retail level) have sellers collect the tax.

Quote:
Except one, ... death tax ...

Not so..  Dividends (?%) & Capital Gains (4.5% or federal revenues) tax don't impact sale price (before or after sales tax) at all.  You could argue that tax on interest impacts interest rates, but that's pretty hard to swallow without a lot of hand-waving.  Tax on social security, pensions, don't impact the price of anything currently being made or sold.

Quote:
If you remove all other taxes and only tax sales, then prices will go DOWN.


No - you'd lose revenue from the factors above, and from capital formation (US savings rate runs ~5.5-10%) so the RATE would have to go up to collect the same amount of revenue.  If you only tax 'new' items you'd lose State&local revenues from used items and have to make the rate even higher.   Virtually all economist claim a consumption tax will increase the saving rate so bump up that 5.5-10% figure.


Quote:
1)  In the short run because you immediately remove the cost of tax compliance and the inefficiencies of incenting activities which do not grow the economy as well as making the cash based economy taxpayers


No - there is just different tax compliance costs.  I suggest you do some reading on the ways the Euros have evaded VAT.  Instead of analysing your 1099s & W-2s they'll need to verify that all those untaxed items really were exported and not sold black-market.  Or that you didn't lease your car new from Mexico.  The carousel scheme involves just not recording that you made and sold a few extra items - Government has to have their fingers all over every transaction.

Inefficiency is created by any tax including FAIR.   You are just blind to it.   Studies have shown that VAT is likely less efficient than income taxes.  I see no reason to believe FAIR would be magically cost free.

Quote:
2)  In the long run because we become a tax haven and will draw investment from across the world.  Companies will move here instead of leaving


*IF* we become a tax haven, which seems quite unlikely.   The VAT taxes that most of the rest-of-world uses are very similar in impact to FAIR (it's only on value-add, not price, and only paid by the final consumer), altho' many nations also retain a smaller income tax.  Do you believe that Germany, France, China are tax havens b/c of VAT ?

Quote:
So to your list, taxing "income/profit" and "VAT" are both sales taxes, Steve.


WRONG!   They all add to the cost of the good or service produced - which may be subsequently and separated taxed by any sales tax.  Well VAT is a little different, but that's for another day.


What you SEEM to be feebly flailing around is the concept that the consumer pays for all production costs and for any sales tax, plus a variable profit.   You are also beating yourself over the head with the unnecessary concept that money/product-prices will remain the same - they won't and it doesn't matter.



Quote:
Other sales taxes include:

- CDs
- Bonds
- Corporate taxes
- Capital gains
- Dividend taxes
- Tariffs
- Property taxes
- Sin taxes


Gibberish.  A CDs & Bonds aren't taxes at all.  If you mean tax in interest, explain.
Personal cap-gains & divs & property tax  do not impact any sale price.  Ridiculous.

Quote:
The taxes are calculated in the purchase prices.


Then tell use exactly WHAT 'purchase price' increases when you pay $5k in property tax, or $5k in cap-gains.

  
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stevea
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #63 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:42am
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Don_G wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 1:11pm:
I will say though, that you have erred grievously when you condemned unions. That alone lowered my personal estimation of your libertarian ideals being sincere. No libertarian can be allowed to get away with that!


Just wow !

Work is an exchange of labor for wage, and should be a competitive free-market transaction.
Unions are cartels - monopolies of labor, that destroy free market competition.
Exactly the opposite of what any libertarian should want.

That are loads of other problems with unions - they remove members ability to act as a free agent in their own interests.

Quote:
Your politics are too extreme right Steve.


My politics are extremely liberal - I want everyone to have as much personal liberty as possible.  Unions prevent that.
-
-
They are also very destructive and inefficient (from personal experience).
  
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stevea
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #64 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 6:55am
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FAIR tax.

I don't want to come across so negative on this.  FAIR, if properly implemented would be better than an income or a VAT tax IMO.

It is NOT free of market distortion.
It is not free of onerous policing for evasion.

What kaz is dancing round is the very simple fact that it doesn't necessarily cause any immediate change in the NET amount of goods produced or consumed.  It''s revenue neutral in the first instant.  It is not neutral wrt to the distribution of those goods & services.

What kaz refuses to address is that the FAIR tax considerably changes tax incidence.  Every dollar you spend is taxed at some flat rate, so the person spending more of his income pays a larger tax:income ratio than someone who saves.   The tax incidence shifts considerable onto the poor and the profligate spender.  For various moral reasons we may not care greatly about the profligate spender, but increasing taxes on the working poor will cause moral outrage.

As I understand the Boortz notion FAIR would be coupled with a negative income tax payment to everyone from the government.  Each crotch-dropping gets their share of the taxes.   This has several advantages.  It removes the welfare program overheads, and ensures that no one can claim to be indigent without also claiming to be profligate (or perhaps robbed).  The negative income tax is sound in theory, but it has,  from my libertarian POV, a highly negative consequence of addicting EVERYONE to federal government handouts as a way of life.  Putting literally everyone on the government dole is despicable and morally destructive IMO.   Will this one-size-fits-all payment really be able to replace Social Security which is dependent on amounts paid-in ?  Can it really replace welfare with such diverse needs ?

I've already mentioned, that to be 'just' the FAIR tax would require a transition plan for assets that are owned pre-tax vs post-tax.    Something like taxing all the current IRA/401k savings their pending income tax at once so its all on an even basis.  That will be a massive political hurdle.

Mostly I am concerned about the changes in motives of every market participant to marginally decrease the burden of this new tax.   Ignoring the issue of unlawful evasions ... Will ppl marginally avoid buying new and instead repair, harming production ?  Or instead will we see ppl, assured the negative-tax payment/dole forever choose to spend more, save less, work less - reducing available capital & labor ?  Government will suddenly be in the business of encouraging consumption and therefore tax revenue.  Will we see regulation that promotes needless consumption ?

Since every SERVICE is taxed, there is a sudden huge disparity between hiring an employee vs a external service.  It will kill most consulting. This will certainly cause a marginal shift to more insourcing of services. This *IS* an example of substantial economic inefficiency from this tax by from discouraging outsourcing .

--

Seems like a great plan, for you big government, redistributionist, central planner types.

=====

Anyway it's a mortal sin for any good libertarian to be advocating better ways to tax.  The goal is LESS taxes and LESS government.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #65 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 8:35am
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stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 6:55am:
Anyway it's a mortal sin for any good libertarian to be advocating better ways to tax.  The goal is LESS taxes and LESS government.


Thanks stevea, and here's an example of why-

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-budget/345338-can-we-wean-elon-mus...
  
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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #66 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 10:18am
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stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
You are just being insulting


Look man, stop being a baby.  To say this you are working to be insulted and this is the second time you did it.  Seriously.  I am not trying to insult you.  And if you read your posts, you are WAY more insulting to me, but I'm not taking it that way.  I'm just taking your posts for what they are worth and you're passionate about what you say, not trying to insult me.  If you're getting insulted repeatedly while I'm less insulting than you are and I'm not trying to insult you, maybe the Internet isn't the place for you.  Just saying...

On to the content.  I asked you to name taxes that are not collected at the POS, so I'm going to cut out the chaff and focus on the wheat

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Where YOUR argument falls is that SALES TAX or a VAT is a tax on CONSUMPTION NOT PRODUCTION.  These may or may not be collected by the seller, but they are distinct from the sale price

This is just a word game.  By the "sales price" I'm talking about what you pay at the POS.  Clearly sales taxes and VATs are collected POS.  To say wow, if I look at my receipt, it's a different line item, so it's not a sales tax and use that as an argument?  Be serious

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
A tax on sales (consumption) has a different impact on behavior than a tax in income or a tax on raw materials or corporate profits (production)

Obviously taxes on raw materials and corporate profits are built into the price of the products sold by those companies.  Fail.  Next ...

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Dividends (?%) & Capital Gains (4.5% or federal revenues) tax don't impact sale price (before or after sales tax) at all.  You could argue that tax on interest impacts interest rates, but that's pretty hard to swallow without a lot of hand-waving.  Tax on social security, pensions, don't impact the price of anything currently being made or sold


WTF?  Those are all taxes that have to be paid by the company out of it's revenue or by employees who have to be paid that money in their check which comes out of their companies revenue.  If it's not, the employees will quit or the company will shut down.  You seriously don't see how those can not be included in what a company must charge their customers?  They just pay them on their own?  That's insane.

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
No - there is just different tax compliance costs.  I suggest you do some reading on the ways the Euros have evaded VAT.  Instead of analysing your 1099s & W-2s they'll need to verify that all those untaxed items really were exported and not sold black-market.  Or that you didn't lease your car new from Mexico.  The carousel scheme involves just not recording that you made and sold a few extra items - Government has to have their fingers all over every transaction


The Fair Tax is NOT a VAT.  It's a tax only charged on primary markets.  And seriously, you're arguing that all the tax lawyers, tax accountant, tax IT systems are free?  Seriously?  You're arguing that companies making decisions to avoid taxes instead of increase productivity are free?  You're arguing that the cost of collecting a sales tax = the cost of collecting a sales tax plus personal income, corporate income, corporate property personal property, business licenses (revenue), and all the other tax structures?  Wow, you've never owned a business.  I have, five

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Inefficiency is created by any tax including FAIR.   You are just blind to it.   Studies have shown that VAT is likely less efficient than income taxes.  I see no reason to believe FAIR would be magically cost free


Good for you, neither do I and I never said "free"

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
*IF* we become a tax haven, which seems quite unlikely.   The VAT taxes that most of the rest-of-world uses are very similar in impact to FAIR (it's only on value-add, not price, and only paid by the final consumer), altho' many nations also retain a smaller income tax.  Do you believe that Germany, France, China are tax havens b/c of VAT ?


You need to google what VAT taxes are, the Fair Tax is NOT a VAT tax

  

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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #67 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 10:25am
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stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
WRONG!   They all add to the cost of the good or service produced - which may be subsequently and separated taxed by any sales tax.  Well VAT is a little different, but that's for another day

You're stuck on the VAT and it's ENTIRELY different.  You touched on some of the reasons, like all the games the VAT creates where you can change taxes through vertical integration, import/export games.  The VAT is an entirely different concept.  Stop calling the Fair Tax a VAT, it's just saying you don't even know what the Fair Tax is

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
What you SEEM to be feebly flailing around is the concept that the consumer pays for all production costs and for any sales tax, plus a variable profit.   You are also beating yourself over the head with the unnecessary concept that money/product-prices will remain the same - they won't and it doesn't matter


First, I want to point out the insulting tone you continually portray.  Not because it bothers me, it doesn't, but just to tell you to stop whining that I'm a big meanie pants.

And second, I did not say prices would stay the same, I said they would go down.  All the other taxes both personal and property would go away.  Those taxes are already in the price of products now, and you didn't come up here with any that are not.  However, the cost of tax compliance for everything but the Fair Tax would go away, many many tax infrastructures to tax the same thing, the price of products.

And as someone who's owned five businesses, the argument that businesses and owners calculating the fair tax is as hard as corporate and personal taxes and unemployment and all the other tax structures, wow.  It's just delusional.  The sales tax is the easiest tax we collect.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

I always find it interesting how people who have never owned a business or been in real management always just want to lecture me through ignorance.  I'm NOT saying you should just believe everything I say.  But don't you feel like an ass when you just lecture someone who lives something and you don't have a damned question for me about what I have massive experience in and you have none?


stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Gibberish.  A CDs & Bonds aren't taxes at all.  If you mean tax in interest, explain


Banks, bond holders have to earn the money out of the price of their products to pay interest and dividends.  If they can't, they go out of business.  It's just another cost to them

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Personal cap-gains & divs & property tax  do not impact any sale price.  Ridiculous

Really, then where do you get the money to pay them?  If you don't pay those, you lose your property.   Your pay is the cost of living + your skills and experiences + a margin for discretionary income.  Your personal taxes are part of your cost of living.  Your employer doesn't pay that, you quit.  Where do they get the money?  They charge it in the price of their products to their customers, they have to

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Then tell use exactly WHAT 'purchase price' increases when you pay $5k in property tax, or $5k in cap-gains


First of all, tone down the ego.  You aren't speaking for a throng of people, just yourself.

Second, when you buy a house, the property taxes are projected into the price you pay for the house.   When you buy a house, this is all calculated directly on your worksheet as to what you can afford.  You thought you just buy a house and property taxes didn't occur to anyone?  Later you just say oh yeah and pay it?  It's not part of your expected salary from your employer?  That's what you thought?

Based on the comments I kept hearing from my employees that they didn't understand their own pay, I put together a slide I went over with them how employers calculate their pay.  How I calculate their pay.  It was something like this.  I'm just making up the numbers and including partial costs.

Employee A:

Base Pay - $80K
Social Security (Employer) - $6K
Medicare - $3K
Unemployment - $1K
Health insurance - $5K
Other Benefits - $5K

The employee says they earn $80K.  We (the employer) says they earn $100K.  This is referred to as the "fully loaded" salary by employees.  In management meetings, trust me, their pay is $100K, not $80K.

It doesn't stop there.  We calculate:

- Desk space $2K
- Computer, software and support - $10K
- Management - $10K
- ...

We calculate every cost.  But most employees with no management experience like you do just running around thinking $80K is your cost to the company completely oblivious of the rest of your costs.  You think we just pay taxes without ever considering taxes as a cost.  You think we are unaware of what people with certain market skills are worth or what they are worth in relationship to each other.

So, you going to just lecture me again?  Go ahead
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #68 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 10:51am
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stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 6:55am:
Seems like a great plan, for you big government, redistributionist, central planner types


You think eliminating every tax except one is "big government?"  That's just inane.

And you are advocating the continuation of the IRS and their tax system which citizens have no rights, no presumption of innocence while they freely pry into every aspect of our lives.  Oh, but THAT's not big government

=====

stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 5:29am:
Anyway it's a mortal sin for any good libertarian to be advocating better ways to tax.  The goal is LESS taxes and LESS government


Inane pot shot.  I'm advocating taking 10 (or whatever it is) tax structures down to one and you act like that's expanding government power

As for the rest of your rant, it's just ignorance in action.  I want to simplify and pare down our taxes, our tax overheads, productivity disincentives and government intrusion into our lives.

And you're like well you're not a libertarian kaz.

Then you whine that "I" insult "you."

And again, WE ALREADY COLLECT SALES TAXES.  I'm proposing reducing the many tax structures we have now down to one WE ALREADY HAVE.  Oh, but that's not libertarian.  Keep all the tax structures, that's your libertarian answer.  Yeah ...
  

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Re: Oil subsidies
Reply #69 - Aug 8th, 2017 at 11:25am
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stevea wrote on Aug 8th, 2017 at 6:55am:
Anyway it's a mortal sin for any good libertarian to be advocating better ways to tax.  The goal is LESS taxes and LESS government.


This is an unfortunately common idea among libertarians.  In my opinion its false.  The complexity of the tax code enables and encourages cronyism.   Advocating better ways to tax includes simplification which is more important than just lowering taxes.   

H and R block is the largest seasonal employer in the US.  That is effectively a tax on everyone that isn't an accountant and welfare for everyone that is.  So, I take paying slightly more to the government in order to pay significantly less to turbotax.

  
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