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kaz
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Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:30am
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John Locke was the father of classic liberalism and he was the creator of the concept of consent of the governed.  Declaration of Independence as written by Thomas Jefferson and approved unanimously by the classic liberals, the founding fathers: 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

The Constitution of the United States:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Note that the authority for the Federal Government was the consent of the governed, "We the People."

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Conclusion.  Indeed, no one who claims to be a classic liberal with any credibility at all can possibly believe a government without the consent of the people being governed  is legitimate
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:49pm
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This is exactly why I insist that welfare parasites must get a vote or it's tyranny: The concept of consent of the governed.
  

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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #2 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 2:25am
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"The Opposition"; you are of course referring to Corporations, who receive 300% more government handouts than all social security programs combined.

You're right, those corporate leechers should pay their own way, and not rely on their livelihoods from the tax dollars of people working in factories or McDonalds.
  
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #3 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:28am
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kaz wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:30am:
John Locke was the father of classic liberalism and he was the creator of the concept of consent of the governed.  Declaration of Independence as written by Thomas Jefferson and approved unanimously by the classic liberals, the founding fathers: 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"

The Constitution of the United States:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Note that the authority for the Federal Government was the consent of the governed, "We the People."

----------------------------------

Conclusion.  Indeed, no one who claims to be a classic liberal with any credibility at all can possibly believe a government without the consent of the people being governed  is legitimate
Once a government has been instituted by the consent of the governed, i.e. when a constitution is legitimately ratified, and where that constitution provides for the people to alter it when it's thought necessary, then what you have is a government governing with the consent of the governed.

Actions by such a legitimate government are not always legitimate. That doesn't make the constituted government illegitimate, it only means that people in the  government have exceeded their authority or usurped power. In some (many?) cases, the assumed authority and consequent unconstitutional actions are very much in line with the wishes of the majority of "the governed".

Unconstitutional government actions may be undertaken with the consent of the governed, indeed, unconstitutional acts are nowadays seen as something government must do because it's what "the governed" want.

The system of government designed by the classical liberal Founders is what has the consent of the governed, and if not, it may be changed by legitimate amendment. No single act of the government, whether legitimate under the Law of the Constitution or not is ever likely to have the consent of every single one of "the governed". Neither is every one of "the governed" ever likely to approve entirely of all the powers granted (or not granted) to the government. Nor will unanimous consent even to the structure of our system of government ever be achieved.

Edit: It seems to me that you believe that no government can ever be legitimate since no government can ever have the consent of the governed. Practical classic liberals disagreed at the time of the Founding. They thought a government designed to protect Individual Rights and Liberty was inherently legitimate.
  
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #4 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 4th, 2017 at 9:49pm:
This is exactly why I insist that welfare parasites must get a vote or it's tyranny: The concept of consent of the governed.


Well, you need to read Locke more.  Consent of the governed applies to full members of society.  He did not in any way mean it to refer to leaches voting themselves money.  If your neighbor allows you to live in his spare room because you're hard on your luck, that doesn't make you a full member of his household with a vote on how they spend THEIR money
  

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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #5 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:52am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:28am:
Once a government has been instituted by the consent of the governed, i.e. when a constitution is legitimately ratified, and where that constitution provides for the people to alter it when it's thought necessary, then what you have is a government governing with the consent of the governed


You are full of shit.  Read the sentence after the one I highlighted in red in the quote and the quotes of the founding fathers on the subject.  They all contradict you.  They clearly state that consent of the governed is removed when the government stops acting in the interest of the people as determined by the people, not the government.

Stop calling yourself a classic liberal.  You don't even know what the term means.  Literally, you don't.  You don't even believe in the basis of a legitimate classic liberal government.

Here's another way for you to see it, Jeff.  Slavery is just a red herring for you in this.  If there were no slaves, you still would have supported the Union conquering the South and forcing them to stay in the Union.  So cut the slave bull.  It had nothing to do with Lincoln's tyranny and it had nothing to do with your support for Lincoln's tyranny.

You can believe that, Jeff, but you can't call yourself a classic liberal while you do
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #6 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:55am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:28am:
Edit: It seems to me that you believe that no government can ever be legitimate since no government can ever have the consent of the governed. Practical classic liberals disagreed at the time of the Founding. They thought a government designed to protect Individual Rights and Liberty was inherently legitimate.


Now you're just babbling.  I said nor think any such thing.  The South clearly no longer consented to be governed.  The Union States did.  WTF are you talking about?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #7 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 12:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:28am:
Once a government has been instituted by the consent of the governed, i.e. when a constitution is legitimately ratified, and where that constitution provides for the people to alter it when it's thought necessary, then what you have is a government governing with the consent of the governed.

Actions by such a legitimate government are not always legitimate. That doesn't make the constituted government illegitimate, it only means that people in the  government have exceeded their authority or usurped power. In some (many?) cases, the assumed authority and consequent unconstitutional actions are very much in line with the wishes of the majority of "the governed".

Unconstitutional government actions may be undertaken with the consent of the governed, indeed, unconstitutional acts are nowadays seen as something government must do because it's what "the governed" want.

The system of government designed by the classical liberal Founders is what has the consent of the governed, and if not, it may be changed by legitimate amendment. No single act of the government, whether legitimate under the Law of the Constitution or not is ever likely to have the consent of every single one of "the governed". Neither is every one of "the governed" ever likely to approve entirely of all the powers granted (or not granted) to the government. Nor will unanimous consent even to the structure of our system of government ever be achieved.

Edit: It seems to me that you believe that no government can ever be legitimate since no government can ever have the consent of the governed. Practical classic liberals disagreed at the time of the Founding. They thought a government designed to protect Individual Rights and Liberty was inherently legitimate.


Well worth the time to read that!
Don't get passionate with the pig when you know beforehand that you'r'e going to be mocked for your honest attempts.
  
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #8 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 1:00pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 12:34pm:
Well worth the time to read that!
Don't get passionate with the pig when you know beforehand that you'r'e going to be mocked for your honest attempts.


Once again you respond to me while you think snapping your fingers makes you invisible, Burt.

  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #9 - Aug 5th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:52am:
You are full of shit.  Read the sentence after the one I highlighted in red in the quote and the quotes of the founding fathers on the subject.  They all contradict you.  They clearly state that consent of the governed is removed when the government stops acting in the interest of the people as determined by the people, not the government.

Yes, that's what I said, it's possible for the consent of the people to lead to horribly unconstitutional acts by the government. Tyranny even.

The essential point is that it's the constitutionally described system of government that was consented to in the first place. None of it on the national level even existed when the Constitution was ratified. The American people consented to be governed by the type of government that the Constitution created. The various State governments also consented to be part of the system described by the Constitution. Many Royalists didn't, so they went to Canada or some other British colony or back to England.
  
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