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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Consent of the governed and classic liberalism (Read 1299 times)
Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #20 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 5:37pm
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This is an important issue kaz.
  
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #21 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 4:43pm:
The root cause of the American Civil War was slavery in general and the barbaric governments of the slave states in particular.

If you believe differently and can articulate some alternative cause for the Civil War, please do.

You say Lincoln was a tyrant because he invaded slave states.

I say slave state governments were evil tyrants who broke the promise of the Constitution they had agreed to abide by. They were faithless and untrustworthy as are all tyrants. Angry


The issue is consent of the governed.  Lincoln did not invade for slavery and you would have opposed allowing them to leave regardless of slavery.  You're not a classic liberal, you're just not
  

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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #22 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 5:37pm:
This is an important issue kaz.


It is to a classic liberal for whom consent of the governed is the basis of legitimate government.  Removal of consent of the governed is specifically what's destroying us today in favor of tyranny of the majority.  Note there is no slavery today, in fact blacks have extra rights.  And yet tyranny of the majority is steadily growing.

I'm not sure why you care since you're not a classic liberal
  

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Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #23 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:56pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:47pm:
It is to a classic liberal for whom consent of the governed is the basis of legitimate government.  Removal of consent of the governed is specifically what's destroying us today in favor of tyranny of the majority.  Note there is no slavery today, in fact blacks have extra rights.  And yet tyranny of the majority is steadily growing.

I'm not sure why you care since you're not a classic liberal
You deny that slavery was the root cause of the American Civil war and that barbaric slave state governments that ruled their people without any consent were the specific cause?

But you won't  or can't provide any reasonable alternative explanation for the Civil War?

Fine. Explain how the consent of the governed was a factor in barbaric slave state governments and tell me why classic liberals liked that sort of thing. Thanks.
  
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #24 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 8:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:56pm:
You deny that slavery was the root cause of the American Civil war and that barbaric slave state governments that ruled their people without any consent were the specific cause?

But you won't  or can't provide any reasonable alternative explanation for the Civil War?

Fine. Explain how the consent of the governed was a factor in barbaric slave state governments and tell me why classic liberals liked that sort of thing. Thanks.


You're a dolt.  I'll stipulate to Lincoln invading South Carolina not being a violation consent of the governed if you can claim and show two things.

1)  Lincoln was motivated by that as the most black State, if you add blacks and whites together, the South Carolina people consented to be governed by the US government.  Would be interesting since blacks were slaves under the US government why they would consent to that, but it's your nickle

2)  You agree that Lincoln did violate consent of the governed in all the other States where blacks were a minority

You're a joke, and you're not a classic liberal.  Fail, Jeff
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #25 - Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 5th, 2017 at 7:28am:
Once a government has been instituted by the consent of the governed, i.e. when a constitution is legitimately ratified, and where that constitution provides for the people to alter it when it's thought necessary, then what you have is a government governing with the consent of the governed.
...

The Constitution was adopted extralegally:
Articles of Confederation XIII.
Quote:
...And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
...

U.S. Constitution Article VII
Quote:
The ratification of the conventions of nine states, shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the states so ratifying the same.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #26 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 7:35am
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kaz wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 6:46pm:
The issue is consent of the governed.  Lincoln did not invade for slavery and you would have opposed allowing them to leave regardless of slavery.  You're not a classic liberal, you're just not
I would have looked more favorably on states leaving the Union if their purpose was not to preserve and extend the institution of human slavery....

You really think they left for some other reason? Please tell me what that reason might be. Thanks.

Edit: As I keep saying, the State governments consented to be governed by the Constitution. Individual Citizens or groups of citizens gave 'consent' to have their State government be governed by the Constitution by whatever democratic process they used in their state to elect the Representatives that ratified the Constitution.

Slaves of course gave no consent whatsoever because they were not represented in the State legislatures.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #27 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 7:40am
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Morris wrote on Aug 6th, 2017 at 10:13pm:
The Constitution was adopted extralegally:
Articles of Confederation XIII.
U.S. Constitution Article VII

The Constitution created by the Convention was proposed as a replacement for the Articles of Confederation. When it was accepted, i.e. ratified according to the process set out in the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation no longer applied.
The Constitution did not alter the Articles of Confederation, it replaced them.

Edit: You should refer to the Declaration of Independence where it talks about the Right of people to alter or abolish forms of government that aren't serving the purpose of preserving Rights and Liberties. Smiley
  
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kaz
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #28 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 9:28am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 7th, 2017 at 7:35am:
You really think they left for some other reason? Please tell me what that reason might be. Thanks


Well, you're turning a complex situation into a simplistic one, but it's irrelevant since the belief of others is not the point in contention.  It's your belief, which does not include the consent of the governed


Jeff wrote on Aug 7th, 2017 at 7:35am:
Edit: As I keep saying, the State governments consented to be governed by the Constitution. Individual Citizens or groups of citizens gave 'consent' to have their State government be governed by the Constitution by whatever democratic process they used in their state to elect the Representatives that ratified the Constitution

Your great, great grandparents can't give consent of the governed under a classic liberal system.  Read John Locke and the founding fathers and learn what classic liberals are.

It's bizarre how you think that if you in your mind prove classic liberalism wrong, that makes you a classic liberal when it actually proves you're not

Jeff wrote on Aug 7th, 2017 at 7:35am:
Slaves of course gave no consent whatsoever because they were not represented in the State legislatures.


True, but that is not why Lincoln invaded.  He invaded to force them to stay in the Union, not to give up slaves.  After a couple years of war he said what the hell, we're in the war now anyway
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: Consent of the governed and classic liberalism
Reply #29 - Aug 7th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 7th, 2017 at 9:28am:
Well, you're turning a complex situation into a simplistic one...
As I've said before, I'm simple minded.

If you think I am wrong to believe that slavery was the root cause of the Civil War, tell me why.

And tell me what you mean by "consent of the governed".

How many times will you force me to ask?
  
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