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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea (Read 3164 times)
Don_G
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #150 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:55am
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You don't seem to understand Steve. This is all about China asserting itself in it's sphere of influence and telling the US to stop meddling in the region. You could think of it as somewhat the same as the way the US uses Israel in the ME.

My bet is that N.Korea is doing exactly what China wishes it to do but won't reveal to the world because of the US winning the propaganda war to demonize N.Korea.

In any case, what you can believe is that N.Korea is safe from US aggression, no matter what Trump babbles on about. China and Russia are finished with backing down to the US and that goes for all over the world where the US is intent of more wars to solidify US hegemony.

Syria was the first taste of that! The US is stalled and stalemated.
  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #151 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:00pm
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Chinese President tells Trump to tone down language after 'fire and fury' threats to North Korea

"military solutions are now fully in place, locked and loaded, should North Korea act unwisely". Trump tweeted.

The bull-in-the-china-shop meme was never as apropos as it is now.
  
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Don_G
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #152 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:12pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:00pm:
Chinese President tells Trump to tone down language after 'fire and fury' threats to North Korea

"military solutions are now fully in place, locked and loaded, should North Korea act unwisely". Trump tweeted.

The bull-in-the-china-shop meme was never as apropos as it is now.


Chief, one must wonder who Trump is trying to impress?

My theory remains, N.Korea is being directed by China to cause the stalemate the US is up against. What is said by either side is not reflective of the actual situation. N.Korea is as surely under China's and Russia's wings as Israel is under the US wings of protection.

China's endgame can only be, asserting their power to oppose US aggression in their sphere of influence. And Russia plays a big part in it because China and Russia are now firmly aligned.

If any Americans are worrying about nuclear war, they should just relax. It's not coming because the US is going to have to modify it's plans for global supremacy.
  
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stevea
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #153 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:20pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 11:55am:
You don't seem to understand Steve. This is all about China asserting itself in it's sphere of influence and telling the US to stop meddling in the region. You could think of it as somewhat the same as the way the US uses Israel in the ME.


I understand a lot more than you do - obviously.


Quote:
My bet is that N.Korea is doing exactly what China wishes it to do but won't reveal to the world because of the US winning the propaganda war to demonize N.Korea.


Yes, China wants to expand their sphere of influence, no NoKo is *NOT* taking orders from China.  NoKo distrusts China massively.   They claimed China was behind some (perhaps imaginary)  regime change scheme back under Kim Jong Il.  If you read any of the history I pointed you toward you'd realize why the China-NoKo relationship you imagine is impossible.

There is no propaganda war - NoKos publicly accessible acts make it a pariah among nations.  They demonize themselves openly.   


Quote:
In any case, what you can believe is that N.Korea is safe from US aggression, no matter what Trump babbles on about.


FAIL - China's announcement that they won't tolerate a US first strike, is correctly interpreted as China will tolerate US retaliation if NoKo commits some attack.  They are only, safe from US military aggression so long as they fail to act as they claim they would.

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China and Russia are finished with backing down to the US and that goes for all over the world where the US is intent of more wars to solidify US hegemony.


This has nothing to do with "backing down" it's about doing what is in their self-interest.
A trade breakdown would hurt China a LOT more than the US.   Russia has huge economic problems, failed to bale out cuba from their recent oil problem, why would they bale out NoKo and face more direct challenges from the US ?  Makes no sense.   Would they like to deal with ICBMs in Poland or the Ukraine ?


Quote:
Syria was the first taste of that! The US is stalled and stalemated.


You are obviously are ignorant of history.  Russia has had economic dealings w/ Syria for decades, investments in pipeline cos etc.  and it's their warm-water port on the Med.  They are obviously & rationally willing to use some force to prop up their corrupt leader to maintain their investment and their military port.  WHat exactly do you imagine is the US interest in Syria ? 

Euro/NATO nations are certainly damages by the outflow of refugees.  US has a really stupid and unproductive reason to support Iraq, and that's a huge part of pushing on ISIL in Syria.  Everyone looks the other way about Kurdish nationalism.   So what exactly do you imagine the US  lost in Syria ?

There is no stalemate - lots of moves left - it's only your stale imagination at work.
You have a defeatist attitude, not an evidenced,  reasoned position.
I suspect your national inferiority complex is the core impediment to your fair appraisal.
  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #154 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:27pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:12pm:
If any Americans are worrying about nuclear war, they should just relax. It's not coming because the US is going to have to modify it's plans for global supremacy.

I think that Trump thinks he can conquer NoKo without using nukes.  If he could do that, the US would have access to China's border, which obviously is a tremendous strategic advantage over China.

But a war with NoKo means a war with China.  And possibly Russia.  It would cost trillions of dollars, would cost millions of lives, and would cause years of economic hardship for the Americans not employed by the M.I.C.
  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #155 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:40pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:20pm:
I understand a lot more than you do - obviously.


It's not worth arguing with you.



Quote:
Yes, China wants to expand their sphere of influence, no NoKo is *NOT* taking orders from China.  NoKo distrusts CHina massively.   They claimed China was behind some (perhaps imaginary)  regime change scheme back under Kim Jong Il.  If you read any of the history I pointed you toward you'd realize why.


China is not intent on expansion at this point in time. But undoubtedly powerful nations historically do eventually. Maybe that's something we can agree upon? I think you want me to agree with you that China is not protecting N.Korea. I can only direct you to your own country's propagandists who are saying that China isn't cooperating. They say that China could end all the problems immediately if they chose to do that. Sanctions against N.Korea are uselss without China's cooperation.


Quote:
There is no propaganda war - NoKos publicly accessible acts make it a pariah among nations.  They demonize themselves openly. 


That's of no consequence, true or otherwise.  



Quote:
FAIL - China's announcement that they won't tolerate a US first strike, is correctly interpreted as China will tolerate US retaliation if NoKo commits some attack.  That are only, safe from US military aggression so long as they fail to act as they claim they would.


Exactly! You've come up with the key by yourself. N.Korea is safe under China's wings of protection but will not be safe if they act out with real hot war aggression. Nothing has changed! This isn't difficult to understand. Instead, look now to US claims of N.Korea acting out to cause justified US aggression. That's a scenario that never changes. Except that now, Russia and China will not tolerate it!


Quote:
This has nothing to do with "backing down" it's about doing what is in their self-interest.
A trade breakdown would hurt China a LOT more than the US.   Russia has huge economic problems, failed to bale out cuba from their recent oil problem, why would they bale out NoKo and face more direct challenges from the US ?  Makes no sense.   Would they like to deal with ICBMs in POland or the Ukraine ?


False bravado. The tide is turning and China/Russia/Brics are on equal footing with the US/West now. But this has nothing to do with N.Korea.



Quote:
WTF - you are obviously are ignorant of history.  Russia has had economic dealings w/ Syria for decades, investments in pipeline cos etc.  and it's their warm-water port on the Med.  They are obviously & rationally willing to use some force to prop up their corrupt leader to maintain their investment and their military port.  WHat exactly do you imagine is the US interest in Syria ? 


You're most likely trying to invent some disagreement with me. Why? I fully acknowledge Russia's interests in Syria, past and present. That which you don't seem to understand is that the US wants complete control over the ME and especially Iran now.

Quote:
Euro/NATO nations are certainly damages by the outflow of refugees.  US has a really stupid and unproductive reason to support Iraq, and that's a huge part of pushing on ISIL in Syria.  Everyone looks the other way about Kurdish nationalism.   So what exactly do you imagine the US  lost in Syria ?


Syria is a stepping stone to Iran and the US hasn't lost Syria or Iran. It just failed to gain both countries in time.

Quote:
There is no stalemate - lots of moves left - it's only your stale imagination at work.
You have a defeatist attitude, not an evidenced,  reasoned position.


I would be interested in hearing what you imagine those moves could be?
  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #156 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:22pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:40pm:
It's not worth arguing with you.




China is not intent on expansion at this point in time. But undoubtedly powerful nations historically do eventually. Maybe that's something we can agree upon? I think you want me to agree with you that China is not protecting N.Korea. I can only direct you to your own country's propagandists who are saying that China isn't cooperating. They say that China could end all the problems immediately if they chose to do that. Sanctions against N.Korea are uselss without China's cooperation.



That's of no consequence, true or otherwise.  




Exactly! You've come up with the key by yourself. N.Korea is safe under China's wings of protection but will not be safe if they act out with real hot war aggression. Nothing has changed! This isn't difficult to understand. Instead, look now to US claims of N.Korea acting out to cause justified US aggression. That's a scenario that never changes. Except that now, Russia and China will not tolerate it!



False bravado. The tide is turning and China/Russia/Brics are on equal footing with the US/West now. But this has nothing to do with N.Korea.




You're most likely trying to invent some disagreement with me. Why? I fully acknowledge Russia's interests in Syria, past and present. That which you don't seem to understand is that the US wants complete control over the ME and especially Iran now.


Syria is a stepping stone to Iran and the US hasn't lost Syria or Iran. It just failed to gain both countries in time.


I would be interested in hearing what you imagine those moves could be?


Authoritarian leftists are the most judgmental bastards on the earth, aren't you?  Your fingers are always pointing ... at someone else.  While you take no responsibility for your own long track record of failure
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #157 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:25pm
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WIth much more respect than I have for Don ....

SkyChief wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 12:27pm:
But a war with NoKo means a war with China.


China is clearly signalling that won't protect NoKo from a US retaliation if NoKo attacks first. That does NOT mean China would accept US inspired regime change in NoKo, nor occupation.  I'm sure there have been some interesting US-CHina discussions in the past few weeks about exactly how far things can progress before CHina needs to be involved.

Quote:
  And possibly Russia.


Good point - Russia shares a border w/ NoKo but they aren't IMO particularly likely to get involved so long as there is no occupation.

Quote:
  It would cost trillions of dollars,


Orders of magnitude off for any realistic scenario.  THis is not going to be a years-long expeditionary ground force as in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Quote:
would cost millions of lives


No - not unless NoKo goes batshit crazy on SoKo with ground forces. I can't imagine anything more than theatre nukes primarily aimed at missle/bomb facilities and maybe some targeting of  military targets.

Quote:
and would cause years of economic hardship for the Americans not employed by the M.I.C.


Probably true regardless of outcome. - but the US could increase it's budget by an amount equal to Chinas outlay at an added 1% of GDP.

--

The salient military facts are these - China & Russia can't project force very effectively, but are very geared toward a ground game.   Given the distances, and logistics they can take the US in NoKo by any sort of conventional war.  Russia has a militarily aggressive history, China does not.  China needs/uses NoKo as a buffer state but certainly doesn't have the sort of direct control that some here imagine.

I *suspect the US/China arrangement is roughly that China won't get involved so long as the US doesn't implement a first strike attack on NoKo, doesn't make any move toward regime change or occupation, and doesn't strike w/ vastly disproportionate harm.

So if NoKo fires missiles over Japan and toward Guam, the retaliation might be something like we sink as many of their subs as we like and strike some of their missile facilities.   If NoKo explodes a nuke in US territory - we will respond in-kind. If NoKo retaliates to that ... the spiral continues stepwise.

I'm pretty convinced China want's to denuclearize the Korean peninsula, as does the US,  but the realistic discussion has to include the option of the US arming SoKo to parity.  Russia gave NoKo their start in  nuclear tech with an agreement they follow the nuclear non-proliferation agreement  NoKo ignored that shortly thereafter.  I think NoKo has burnt too many bridges on both sides of the political divide.




  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #158 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:33pm
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stevea wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:25pm:
WIth much more respect than I have for Don ....


China is clearly signalling that won't protect NoKo from a US retaliation of NoKO attacks first. That does NOT mean China would accept US inspired regime change in NoKo, nor occupation.  I'm sure there have been some interesting US-CHina discussions in the past few weeks about exactly how far things can progress before CHina needs to be involved.


Good point - Russia shares a border w/ NoKo but they aren't IMO particularly likely to get involved so long as there is no occupation.


Orders of magnitude off for any realistic scenario.  THis is not going to be a years-long expeditionary ground force as in Iraq/Afghanistan.


No - not unless NoKo goes batshit crazy on SoKo with ground forces. I can't imagine anything more than theatre nukes primarily aimed at missle/bomb facilities and maybe some targeting of  military targets.


Probably true regardless of outcome. - but the US could increase it's budget by an amount equal to Chinas outlay at an added 1% of GDP.

--

The salient military facts are these - China & Russia can't project force very effectively, but are very geared toward a ground game.   Given the distances, and logistics they can take the US in NoKo by any sort of conventional war.  Russia has a militarily aggressive history, China does not.  China needs/uses NoKo as a buffer state but certainly doesn't have the sort of direct control that some here imagine.

I *suspect the US/China arrangement is roughly that China won't get involved so long as the US doesn't implement a first strike attack on NoKo, doesn't make any move toward regime change or occupation, and doesn't strike w/ vastly disproportionate harm.

So if NoKo fires missiles over Japan and toward Guam, the retaliation might be something like we sink as many of their subs as we like and strike some of their missile facilities.   If NoKo explodes a nuke in US territory - we will respond in-kind. If NoKo retaliates to that ... the spiral continues stepwise.

I'm pretty convinced China want's to denuclearize the Korean peninsula, as does the US,  but the realistic discussion has to include the option of the US arming SoKo to parity.  Russia gave NoKO their start in  nuclear tech with an agreement they follow the nuclear non-proliferation agreement  NoKO ignored that shortly thereafter.  I think NoKo has burnt too many bridges on both sides of the political divide.






Steve, you walked right into it with me and shot your own foot off. China has made it perfectly clear that N.Korea has China's protection if it doesn't resort to hot war with either the US or S.Korea. And China has also made it perfectly clear that N.Korea is on it's own if it does start hostilities.

Did anyone really think for a moment that N.Korea's intention was to attack the US????

We must stay within the bounds of reality Steve. I know the facts aren't satisfying to Americans but they are still the facts.

I'm suggesting that the US isn't concerned in the least about what N.Korea may or may not do. The US concern is in attempting to intimidate China and Russia.

So let's get on to you telling me what other measures the US has at it's disposal? Fwiw, an attack on N.Korea isn't in the cards. What else?

And also fwiw, if the US attacks N.Korea, the US is going to get China's and Russia's nukes right up it's colletive NY asses in a NY minute!
  
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Re: US Prepared to Start Preventive War Against N.Korea
Reply #159 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:55pm
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Don_G wrote on Aug 12th, 2017 at 1:33pm:
Steve, you walked right into it with me and shot your own foot off. China has made it perfectly clear that N.Korea has China's protection if it doesn't resort to hot war with either the US or S.Korea. And China has also made it perfectly clear that N.Korea is on it's own if it does start hostilities.

Did anyone really think for a moment that N.Korea's intention was to attack the US????

We must stay within the bounds of reality Steve. I know the facts aren't satisfying to Americans but they are still the facts.

I'm suggesting that the US isn't concerned in the least about what N.Korea may or may not do. The US concern is in attempting to intimidate China and Russia.

So let's get on to you telling me what other measures the US has at it's disposal? Fwiw, an attack on N.Korea isn't in the cards. What else?

And also fwiw, if the US attacks N.Korea, the US is going to get China's and Russia's nukes right up it's colletive NY asses in a NY minute!


Yet again the condescending, lecturing ass.  The US is so much more successful than Canada it's pathetic.  There's nothing wrong with your coming in and discussing, nothing at all.  But you're such a dick about it, you're completely ineffective.  You can't even get libertarians to agree with your crap and we already think the US government is fvcked up and we oppose all the wars we're getting into.

Have you ever considered discussing without being such an arrogant prick about it?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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