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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) We Are Winning! (Read 1277 times)
kaz
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #10 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 11:20am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 7:56am:
If you tell me what you mean by "the consent of the governed" I won't ask again. That will be a change.
You won't have to keep saying over and over at length that you already told me what you mean when you say "the consent of the governed". That will be a change too, and it will save you lots of time and effort.


If you give me actual answers to these questions, I'll see what I can do.  They aren't arbitrary questions, but they would help me address whatever you are looking for that is not clear directly related to your question

1)  I mean nothing other than what John Locke meant.  Why do I need to write you a book report?  BTW, I already did once and you ignored it.  In fact you quoted my answer in asking me what consent of the governed meant again.  I should have copied that quote to just give you that.  If you re-read our discussions, you'll find it.

2)  Do you believe Lincoln believed he had the consent of the Southerners when he invaded to force them to remain in the Union?

3)  Do you believe the South consented to be governed by the North when they raised an army and fought them for independence for four years?  The North was far bigger and had way more industrial resources.  That's being pretty dedicated.

And cut with the Slavery because we are discussing the invasion of the South in 1861 and slavery was not an issue to Lincoln until 1863.  BTW, he did not believe blacks were equal, just so you know
  

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Jeff
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #11 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:31pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 11:20am:
If you give me actual answers to these questions, I'll see what I can do.  They aren't arbitrary questions, but they would help me address whatever you are looking for that is not clear directly related to your question

1)  I mean nothing other than what John Locke meant.  Why do I need to write you a book report?  BTW, I already did once and you ignored it.  In fact you quoted my answer in asking me what consent of the governed meant again.  I should have copied that quote to just give you that.  If you re-read our discussions, you'll find it.

2)  Do you believe Lincoln believed he had the consent of the Southerners when he invaded to force them to remain in the Union?

3)  Do you believe the South consented to be governed by the North when they raised an army and fought them for independence for four years?  The North was far bigger and had way more industrial resources.  That's being pretty dedicated.

And cut with the Slavery because we are discussing the invasion of the South in 1861 and slavery was not an issue to Lincoln until 1863.  BTW, he did not believe blacks were equal, just so you know

The civil war was very much about slavery and Lincoln knew it. He didn't make it an issue until 1863 because he thought the cause of winning the war would be better served by not focusing on slavery.

Anyway, what Locke said about consent of the governed has no application in war. The slave states left the Union and created their own nation, the CSA. Then they attacked a U.S. military base and Congress declared war on the CSA. Lincoln prosecuted that war as was his duty.

No, I don't think anybody in the CSA gave the USA consent to declare war on them and invade, nor was it necessary.

When the USA won the war, the CSA was conquered territory, and the USA decided to turn the territory into states and make sure they all had State Constitutions that prohibited slavery.
  
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kaz
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #12 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:31pm:
The civil war was very much about slavery and Lincoln knew it. He didn't make it an issue until 1863 because he thought the cause of winning the war would be better served by not focusing on slavery


Factually wrong.

1)  Lincoln did not consider himself to be an abolitionist
2)  Lincoln offered the South that he would NOT end slavery before he issued the Emancipation Proclamation if they would give up the rebellion and return to the US.  That blows your argument out of the water

Oops, you're caught making up your "facts" again

Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:31pm:
Anyway, what Locke said about consent of the governed has no application in war


Wow, you're completely wrong.  War as necessary is exactly what Locke prescribed by the people when the government no longer acts in their interest and they no longer consent.  Also the founding fathers.

Thomas Jefferson:  "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:31pm:
The slave states left the Union and created their own nation, the CSA. Then they attacked a U.S. military base and Congress declared war on the CSA. Lincoln prosecuted that war as was his duty

No, I don't think anybody in the CSA gave the USA consent to declare war on them and invade, nor was it necessary

When the USA won the war, the CSA was conquered territory, and the USA decided to turn the territory into states and make sure they all had State Constitutions that prohibited slavery.


I like the admission "the CSA was conquered territory."  Obviously consent of the governed wasn't relevant to you or Lincoln.  You're free to think that, but it means you are not a classic liberal
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #13 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:01pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
Factually wrong.

1)  Lincoln did not consider himself to be an abolitionist
2)  Lincoln offered the South that he would NOT end slavery before he issued the Emancipation Proclamation if they would give up the rebellion and return to the US.  That blows your argument out of the water

Lincoln, as you said, did not think Negros were equal and was not an abolitionist.
That doesn't mean he wasn't aware of the strength of the Abolitionist movement and the fighting going on in Kansas and Missouri.

Which argument is blown out of the water by the fact that Lincoln offered to not end slavery? (Something that would take a Constitutional amendment anyway... Lincoln could "free" the slaves in the CSA by Proclamation, but he had no power to do any such thing in the USA.)
  
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kaz
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #14 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:01pm:
Lincoln, as you said, did not think Negros were equal and was not an abolitionist.
That doesn't mean he wasn't aware of the strength of the Abolitionist movement and the fighting going on in Kansas and Missouri.

Which argument is blown out of the water by the fact that Lincoln offered to not end slavery? (Something that would take a Constitutional amendment anyway... Lincoln could "free" the slaves in the CSA by Proclamation, but he had no power to do any such thing in the USA.)


It blew out of your water your claim that Lincoln secretly invaded to end slavery
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #15 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:04pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 2:48pm:
I like the admission "the CSA was conquered territory."  Obviously consent of the governed wasn't relevant to you or Lincoln.  You're free to think that, but it means you are not a classic liberal
The CSA was a foreign nation by their own choice, not governed any longer by the Constitution or laws of the United States. "Consent of the governed" does not apply to people who are not governed. What part of that don't you understand?

If you want to talk about the consent of the people governed by the Constitution and laws of the CSA, fine. None of the slaves living in the CSA gave any consent.

  
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #16 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:04pm:
The CSA was a foreign nation by their own choice, not governed any longer by the Constitution or laws of the United States. "Consent of the governed" does not apply to people who are not governed. What part of that don't you understand?

If you want to talk about the consent of the people governed by the Constitution and laws of the CSA, fine. None of the slaves living in the CSA gave any consent.



Shocked

WTF?  They left the Union so their consent was no longer required to govern them???

.

So Jeff, I'm tired of your rat holes and arguing slavery.  We're all against it.  You, me, most Northerners in the civil war.  Many southerners.  Virtually everyone today.

Let's boil your argument to your point in all this to the end point you're trying to get at.  Is it my statement you don't believe in consent of the governed and are therefore not a classic liberal?  How do all your arguments that Lincoln is not a tyrant get to that?
  

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Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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Jeff
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #17 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:09pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:04pm:
It blew out of your water your claim that Lincoln secretly invaded to end slavery.

I never said that. I said the war was essentially about slavery and Lincoln knew it.
The CSA was created to preserve slavery and everybody knew it.
I certainly never claimed that the invasion of the CSA by the US was "secret". People went out from Washington to picnic and watch it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #18 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:15pm
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kaz wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:08pm:
Shocked

WTF?  They left the Union so their consent was no longer required to govern them???

.

They no longer lived in the US or were any longer governed by the Constitution and laws of the US.

They now lived in The CSA, and it was that government that needed to consider the consent of the people it governed.

Jeez kaz, if you emigrate to Canada and become a Canadian subject, the U.S. government no longer governs you and doesn't  have to worry about your consent.
  
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kaz
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Re: We Are Winning!
Reply #19 - Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 9th, 2017 at 3:09pm:
I never said that. I said the war was essentially about slavery and Lincoln knew it.
The CSA was created to preserve slavery and everybody knew it.
I certainly never claimed that the invasion of the CSA by the US was "secret". People went out from Washington to picnic and watch it.


Again, we're all against slavery, Jeff.  I stipulate to that you are against slavery too.  You convinced me.  Happy?

How does it lead to that you believe in the consent of the governed?  You keep saying you don't.  You said our great great ... grandparents consented.  You said we have a theoretical way to change the Constitution even though it's never implemented and the government ignores the Constitution.  You supported Lincoln invading just to preserve the Union.  You said we can't raise arms to rebel and if we do the government can conquer us.

All your arguments are counter to your believing in consent of the governed.  So what are you trying to establish?  Or was it just that you wanted to be sure everyone knows you're against slavery?  Since I stipulated to that, are we done?  It's established that you are against slavery but you are not a classic liberal?

You're clear being against slavery doesn't make you a classic liberal, right?  Even Don is against slavery.  I mean the kind they had in 1860.  He's for our enslavement to government, but that's a different discussion.  So since Don is against slavery, is he a classic liberal?
  

Greg Gutfeld - I became a conservative by being around liberals and I became a libertarian by being around conservatives

Matt Stone - I hate conservatives, but I really f'ing hate liberals
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