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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Freedom of Speech (Read 5776 times)
Don_G
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #230 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 1:45pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 15th, 2017 at 1:27pm:
My condemnation of Californians is based on the fact they are [collectively] the dumbest people in the nation. The proof is that leftist wackos at Vista Del Lago High School conflate chants of "USA" with “white supremacy” and “nationalism.” 

That bolded is as good as you conceding my points. You can't say things like that and then claim the high road Chief.   

[quote]There are no words in the English language that properly describe the staggering stupidity of these administrators. 


I think the words to describe it was that the chanting students were deliberately attempting to trample on the rights of Hispanic students. Maybe it would be productive to examine that possibility. For you anyway because I'm way ahead of you on this one and have already searched out the reason for the problems  

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You don't like the message so you discredit the source - typical leftist strategy.  Thanks for doing that.   Wink


Stooping to insults again! As I've told Steve, they have no effect on me but they do reflect badly on your demeanour.

Not to suggest that being called a leftist is an insult, only to say that calling my reasoning that is insulting.

And obviously Chief, you need to employ a better strategy to win a point once in a while. Anger is not working and telling somebody that all Californians are the dumbest people in the nation is well.................

Fwiw, I will grant you that California is lala land and further left than your nation as a whole. I speak from experience in B.C. which is as well. And I understand why it's particularly grating to you.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #231 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 10:23am
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Here's an interesting challenge to 1st Amendment Rights-

http://reason.com/archives/2018/04/11/handing-out-pamphlets-is-not-a-crime?utm_m...
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #232 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:14am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 10:23am:
Here's an interesting challenge to 1st Amendment Rights-

http://reason.com/archives/2018/04/11/handing-out-pamphlets-is-not-a-crime?utm_m...

I agree with Sullum.

Passing out propaganda pamphlets is protected under the 1st Amendment.

Just like Jahovah Witnesses passing out Watchtower® pamphlets on Saturday morning.

It may all be malarkey, but ultimately, it's up to the reader of the info to determine the credibility of the originator of the material.

Caveat Emptor
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #233 - Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:42pm
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:14am:
I agree with Sullum.

Passing out propaganda pamphlets is protected under the 1st Amendment.


I actually disagree somewhat. This could be a tort.

Imagine that I live in a libertarian world and I run a private court that I tout as fair to the bone. I'm not like those other courts, I boast, my juries are rigorously selected so as to weed out bias and deliver a just verdict.

On the day before I have a very important case, and a very important customer, I list a want ad for 500 jurors. The first 500 to show up and agree to serve if they are selected, will automatically receive $5, regardless of whether they are selected. The lucky five who are selected will receive $900 apiece for a day's work.

Meticulously, I comb and grill these applicants until I've weeded them down to five. I use every iota of my genius intellect to throw every curveball at these suckers imaginable. The five remaining are the fairest in the land.

But after I grill them and send them home, late that night after a tiring day of selection, the five precious jewels of fairness, paragons of justice, arrive the next day to actually serve. Someone has camped their route to the courthouse and starts handing everyone pamphlets.

The jury hands down a verdict of innocent. Turns out they were grandstanding the "authority of private courts".

The plaintiff who had a videotape of the defendant digging up his yard and rolling in it while coated in dandelion seeds, doesn't think this is fair. He does some digging and finds out about the pamphlets.

So the plaintiff now sues me, the owner of the private court, for promising my juries were the fairest in the world. He wins, and gets all his money back and a new trial somewhere else.

I am out all my profits on this case plus the $7000 I spent on the jury.

I have a heck of a civil case against the idiot who passed out pamphlets and ruined my $7000 jury.

Now let's apply this to our world. In this case the man was filling in his own damn holes, so there's no one hurt. But what if there was someone harmed by the defendant's act?

Bear in mind that the US government is selling a product. They're selling justice and they're forcing you to buy. And they do claim their product is fair, so if there is an aggressee, why would he have less right to a fair verdict in our society than in a libertarian one?

Also bear in mind that although the pamphlets in this case helped the defendant (as was just), they could have been crazy environmentalist nutjobs handing out pamphlets on the non-existent slimy mini muck eels the guy filling in his land just extincted.

  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #234 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 12:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:42pm:
I actually disagree somewhat. This could be a tort.

Imagine that I live in a libertarian world and I run a private court that I tout as fair to the bone.


You lack the authority to do so.  The State makes no provisions for a private court.

Tort denied.

*hits button on timer*
  
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Jeff
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #235 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 8:09am
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SkyChief wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:14am:
I agree with Sullum.

Passing out propaganda pamphlets is protected under the 1st Amendment.

Just like Jahovah Witnesses passing out Watchtower® pamphlets on Saturday morning.

It may all be malarkey, but ultimately, it's up to the reader of the info to determine the credibility of the originator of the material.

Caveat Emptor
The pamphleteer might have been propagandizing, but the information he was distributing is true. Juries were originally created as a means to prevent the King from convicting Citizens under unjust laws.

The whole idea of our courts is to seek Justice, and when the courts are captured by the government (as were the King's Courts) justice becomes whatever the King says it is.

Juries have a duty to stand up for justice as they see it in the case they are being asked to judge. If a jury determines that execution of a law will result in an injustice being done, the have the legal power to say "Not Guilty".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #236 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 8:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 12th, 2018 at 11:42pm:
I actually disagree somewhat. This could be a tort.

The idea that anyone may use the sidewalk in front of the Courthouse, or set up a soapbox in the public square in order to speak their opinion freely has been ingrained in the American system of Law and Justice since the beginning.

The idea that juries should get information about their role in our system of justice only from judges is a throwback to the King's Star chambers and puts justice solely in the hands of the government, just like it used to be.

What is illegal is attempting to influence individual jurors in specific cases that are currently or soon to come before the court by providing them with information that relates (or purports to relate) to the specific case in question, or by bribing or threatening the jurors.

The role of jurors is a part of the whole system of justice and remains the same in every case.

Justice demands that jurors know their role in the system, and that is what the Fully Informed Jury people want to accomplish. They are not trying to influence individual cases, but simply restore the power of the people in the system of justice.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #237 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 8:26am
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Again on free speech-

http://reason.com/blog/2018/04/12/bernie-sanders-and-elizabeth-warren-thin?utm_m...

Once again, as usual, it is the most "progressive" people who desire the most to restrict our right to speak freely.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #238 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 10:02am
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Jeff wrote on Apr 13th, 2018 at 8:13am:
The idea that anyone may use the sidewalk in front of the Courthouse, or set up a soapbox in the public square in order to speak their opinion freely has been ingrained in the American system of Law and Justice since the beginning.

The idea that juries should get information about their role in our system of justice only from judges is a throwback to the King's Star chambers and puts justice solely in the hands of the government, just like it used to be.

What is illegal is attempting to influence individual jurors in specific cases that are currently or soon to come before the court by providing them with information that relates (or purports to relate) to the specific case in question, or by bribing or threatening the jurors.

The role of jurors is a part of the whole system of justice and remains the same in every case.

Justice demands that jurors know their role in the system, and that is what the Fully Informed Jury people want to accomplish. They are not trying to influence individual cases, but simply restore the power of the people in the system of justice.


Are you willing to be this civil all the time? I'm willing to have discussions, I just don't want to indulge you in your typical insult-fests.

I'm ambivalent about this particular issue and I want to hash it out. But if that's going to degrade into you telling me to kill myself the moment I bring up a point you can't address, I'll pass.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Freedom of Speech
Reply #239 - Apr 13th, 2018 at 10:06am
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The Opposition wrote on Apr 13th, 2018 at 10:02am:
Are you willing to be this civil all the time? I'm willing to have discussions, I just don't want to indulge you in your typical insult-fests.

I'm ambivalent about this particular issue and I want to hash it out. But if that's going to degrade into you telling me to kill myself the moment I bring up a point you can't address, I'll pass.
If you have something to say on the subject, go ahead, unless I've raised a point you can't address... Grin
  
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