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burnsred
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The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:23pm
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Of course, there is no libertarian solution to North Korea.  It's a problem caused specifically because we are NOT a libertarian nation.  We could pull out troops out of South Korea and tell North Korea that we have no intention of getting involved in any conflict among Koreans.  But we would be abandoning the South Koreans after telling them for decades that we would protect them. 

Interventionism is like a knife in the gut to freedom.  Once the knife is inserted, it is dangerous to just pull it out suddenly.  That doesn't mean we just shrug and leave it in.

The long-term solution is to tell South Korea to use all that money they're making with their factories to build up their military to the point of being able to defend themselves against one of the most incompetent governments in the world.  Of course we would have no say in what kind of weapons the South Koreans develop or purchase with which to defend themselves against North Korea's nuclear arms, nor whether they decide to attack pre-emptively. 


  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #1 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 4:53pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Of course, there is no libertarian solution to North Korea. 

Sure, there is. The libertarian solution is to withdraw US troops and leave the region.  We had no business sending troops there to begin with.

The US is not the policeman of the world.  The US needs to steer clear of political entanglements with other countries.  Free Trade should be our objective.  Keep the shipping Lanes open.   

Thats's the libertarian solution.

  
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burnsred
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #2 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 10:26pm
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Sure, there is. The libertarian solution is to withdraw US troops and leave the region.  We had no business sending troops there to begin with.

The US is not the policeman of the world.  The US needs to steer clear of political entanglements with other countries.  Free Trade should be our objective.  Keep the shipping Lanes open.   

Thats's the libertarian solution.
Do you advocate pulling out of North Korea immediately and ending all support for Israel while also pulling our troops out of the middle east and Europe immediately?  The first two and possibly the third would lead to humanitarian disasters. 

Do you see absolutely zero responsibility on our part to mitigate those disasters since we have in the past encouraged South Korea, Israel and Europe to be dependent on our willingness to intervene to prevent their destruction?

Not saying you're wrong if you do.  It's an issue I'm grappling with so I'm asking my fellow libertarians about it.  As an ultimate goal, no U.S. troops anywhere but the U.S. and no U.S. dollars sent to any nations except by private companies conducting free trade is absolutely correct.  But is ending all foreign intervention immediately the only way?

  
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Don_G
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #3 - Sep 16th, 2017 at 11:56pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 10:26pm:
Do you advocate pulling out of North Korea immediately and ending all support for Israel while also pulling our troops out of the middle east and Europe immediately?  The first two and possibly the third would lead to humanitarian disasters. 

Do you see absolutely zero responsibility on our part to mitigate those disasters since we have in the past encouraged South Korea, Israel and Europe to be dependent on our willingness to intervene to prevent their destruction?

Not saying you're wrong if you do.  It's an issue I'm grappling with so I'm asking my fellow libertarians about it.  As an ultimate goal, no U.S. troops anywhere but the U.S. and no U.S. dollars sent to any nations except by private companies conducting free trade is absolutely correct.  But is ending all foreign intervention immediately the only way?



Start by considering all US foreign interventions illegitimate and go from there.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #4 - Sep 19th, 2017 at 7:36am
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Of course, there is no libertarian solution to North Korea.  It's a problem caused specifically because we are NOT a libertarian nation.  We could pull out troops out of South Korea and tell North Korea that we have no intention of getting involved in any conflict among Koreans.  But we would be abandoning the South Koreans after telling them for decades that we would protect them. 

Interventionism is like a knife in the gut to freedom.  Once the knife is inserted, it is dangerous to just pull it out suddenly.  That doesn't mean we just shrug and leave it in.

The long-term solution is to tell South Korea to use all that money they're making with their factories to build up their military to the point of being able to defend themselves against one of the most incompetent governments in the world.  Of course we would have no say in what kind of weapons the South Koreans develop or purchase with which to defend themselves against North Korea's nuclear arms, nor whether they decide to attack pre-emptively. 


N. Korea's military equipment is almost all obsolete and they don't actually have enough food to supply their soldiers for long, or the means to re-supply them if they invade the South. The only real threat to the South is nuclear weapons.

My preferred solution is to let S. Korea and Japan take care of the problem as they see fit...

Should we tell China and Russia to keep out of it? I don't think so.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #5 - Sep 19th, 2017 at 11:28am
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 10:26pm:
Do you advocate pulling out of North Korea immediately and ending all support for Israel while also pulling our troops out of the middle east and Europe immediately?  The first two and possibly the third would lead to humanitarian disasters. 

Yes.  Withdraw all troops. "Humanitarian" aid (Medical supplies, food, clothing, etc.) to Israel is fine, but it needs to be donated - not bought with Taxes..

Quote:
Do you see absolutely zero responsibility on our part to mitigate those disasters since we have in the past encouraged South Korea, Israel and Europe to be dependent on our willingness to intervene to prevent their destruction?

Absolutely none. It was wrong for the US to make South Korea, Israel and Europe become dependent on our willingness to intervene.  We have an obligation to keep Shipping Lanes open. Nothing more. IOW, we can act on thier behalf under unusual circumstances,, i.e.,, Say a South Korean merchant ship was heading east to the US with a load of spanking new Hyundai cars.  If pirates attempted to commandeer the vessel, US Navy would perfectly justified in intervening to vaporize the pirate vessel with an M61 Vulcan mini-gun.

Quote:
As an ultimate goal, no U.S. troops anywhere but the U.S. and no U.S. dollars sent to any nations except by private companies conducting free trade is absolutely correct. 

Smiley


Quote:
But is ending all foreign intervention immediately the only way?

I think it is.  It's what George Washinton admonished in his farewell address. 
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #6 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:00pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Of course, there is no libertarian solution to North Korea.  It's a problem caused specifically because we are NOT a libertarian nation.

Stalin put the Kim Dynasty in charge of N. Korea.

Don't blame me for any of it asshole.

Explaining yourself would be civilized...
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #7 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:47pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 16th, 2017 at 2:23pm:
Of course, there is no libertarian solution to North Korea.  It's a problem caused specifically because we are NOT a libertarian nation.

Stalin put the Kim Dynasty in charge of N. Korea.

Don't blame me for any of it asshole.

Explaining yourself would be civilized...
Well . . . ok, then.

Since I blame the North Korea problem on non-libertarianism, I don't see how that would be blaming you since you are a self-proclaimed libertarian if I'm not mistaken.

But I do need to explain further; I admit that I was too vague.  What I meant was not "a libertarian solution to North Korea" but "a libertarian solution to the difficulty the North Korea situation is causing for the United States."  It is due to our past of interventionism that we've even heard of the Korean peninsula or know that it is divided into two nations.

If our past were a clean slate, the libertarian solution would be to simply pull out our troops and stop providing any military aid whatsoever to South Korea.  Then let all Asian countries know that we love trading with them, but we have no intention of getting involved with any force they choose to initiate.  We might mention to the North Koreans respectfully that of course any move against our territory by troops, bombs or missiles would lead to the utter destruction of any nation making that move.  Then we would smile and say, "but you know that" shake their hand and leave.

Unfortunately, our interventionist past makes that morally untenable since we have encouraged South Korea and Japan to be almost totally dependent on the U.S. for their survival as nations.  So they have focused on getting rich instead of being strong militarily and would have no chance against a determined totalitarian invading force.  Knowing how Asians nations treat other Asian nations that they conquer, we are loathe to leave people we have called our allies to that fate.

That's what I meant.  I failed to follow my own advice to explain, explain, explain.  I would disagree that this makes me an "asshole" but of course I would defend to the death your right to call me that, Jeff.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #8 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 10:08am
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burnsred wrote on Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:47pm:
Well . . . ok, then.

Since I blame the North Korea problem on non-libertarianism, I don't see how that would be blaming you since you are a self-proclaimed libertarian if I'm not mistaken.

But I do need to explain further; I admit that I was too vague.  What I meant was not "a libertarian solution to North Korea" but "a libertarian solution to the difficulty the North Korea situation is causing for the United States."  It is due to our past of interventionism that we've even heard of the Korean peninsula or know that it is divided into two nations.

If our past were a clean slate, the libertarian solution would be to simply pull out our troops and stop providing any military aid whatsoever to South Korea.  Then let all Asian countries know that we love trading with them, but we have no intention of getting involved with any force they choose to initiate.  We might mention to the North Koreans respectfully that of course any move against our territory by troops, bombs or missiles would lead to the utter destruction of any nation making that move.  Then we would smile and say, "but you know that" shake their hand and leave.

Unfortunately, our interventionist past makes that morally untenable since we have encouraged South Korea and Japan to be almost totally dependent on the U.S. for their survival as nations.  So they have focused on getting rich instead of being strong militarily and would have no chance against a determined totalitarian invading force.  Knowing how Asians nations treat other Asian nations that they conquer, we are loathe to leave people we have called our allies to that fate.

That's what I meant.  I failed to follow my own advice to explain, explain, explain.  I would disagree that this makes me an "asshole" but of course I would defend to the death your right to call me that, Jeff.

Sorry. I agree with your ideas about telling our allies that they will have to prepare to defend themselves... we should in fact have done that decades ago, but I do see the use of having allies in what is after all a pretty dangerous world.
The problem becomes, if we expect allies to come to our aid, we must be willing to go to theirs.

Having 800 military bases in 70 countries is not a good idea. Maybe it was in 1950, but not any longer...

I still think the best solution to N. Korea is for Japan and S. Korea to take out the Kim regime, and I see that as a libertarian solution. If someone is outside your house with guns and firebombs threatening to burn your house and kill everyone in it, I don't think it's necessary to wait until he sets your house on fire and starts shooting.

  
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Don_G
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #9 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 1:39pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:47pm:
Well . . . ok, then.

Since I blame the North Korea problem on non-libertarianism, I don't see how that would be blaming you since you are a self-proclaimed libertarian if I'm not mistaken.

But I do need to explain further; I admit that I was too vague.  What I meant was not "a libertarian solution to North Korea" but "a libertarian solution to the difficulty the North Korea situation is causing for the United States."  It is due to our past of interventionism that we've even heard of the Korean peninsula or know that it is divided into two nations.

If our past were a clean slate, the libertarian solution would be to simply pull out our troops and stop providing any military aid whatsoever to South Korea.  Then let all Asian countries know that we love trading with them, but we have no intention of getting involved with any force they choose to initiate.  We might mention to the North Koreans respectfully that of course any move against our territory by troops, bombs or missiles would lead to the utter destruction of any nation making that move.  Then we would smile and say, "but you know that" shake their hand and leave.

Unfortunately, our interventionist past makes that morally untenable since we have encouraged South Korea and Japan to be almost totally dependent on the U.S. for their survival as nations.  So they have focused on getting rich instead of being strong militarily and would have no chance against a determined totalitarian invading force.  Knowing how Asians nations treat other Asian nations that they conquer, we are loathe to leave people we have called our allies to that fate.

That's what I meant.  I failed to follow my own advice to explain, explain, explain.  I would disagree that this makes me an "asshole" but of course I would defend to the death your right to call me that, Jeff.


So what's the libertarian solution?

You've only provided an excuse for not getting out of North Korea and that's wrong to begin with.

Isn't a libertarian non-interventionist and would therefore not interfere with the destiny of Japan and South Korea?

You're saying that the US has to intervene to save them.

You're now left with having to say that a libertarian can't be pure non-interventionist. I'll allow you to do that because my brand of libertarian isn't based on dogma and imagined purity. I can recognize the salient factors.

But that's with some reservations and conditions!

I wonder what the Chief would say? Would he be pure or would he be willing to compromise his agenda?

One thing for sure burnsred, your moderated approach is scaring the hell out of the Chief! LOL
  
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