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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #10 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 4:56pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 1:39pm:
So what's the libertarian solution?

Libertarians generally advocate solutions that increase or protect individual liberty.

That's what creates the tension in foreign policy...

Many libertarians think there is a moral obligation to help captive people to become free. Abolitionists are one example.

Many libertarians think that intervention in matters of human bondage in other countries is not something that we have authority to get involved in.

Can you see where the tension arises?
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #11 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 5:02pm
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So what's the libertarian solution?
The libertarian solution for all of our foreign entanglements is to end them.  However, realistically, Americans are not going to vote for the kind of humanitarian disaster that would happen if we abandon allies such as South Korea and Israel.

So we withdraw gradually beginning after a warning period in which we tell our allies that they better stock up on bullets and beans because we won't be contributing to their defense after x number of years. 

Not an ideal solution but at least it would keep my as-yet unborn grandkids from dying of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #12 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 5:19pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 5:02pm:
The libertarian solution for all of our foreign entanglements is to end them.  However, realistically, Americans are not going to vote for the kind of humanitarian disaster that would happen if we abandon allies such as South Korea and Israel.

So we withdraw gradually beginning after a warning period in which we tell our allies that they better stock up on bullets and beans because we won't be contributing to their defense after x number of years. 

Not an ideal solution but at least it would keep my as-yet unborn grandkids from dying of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell.
We could also encourage (and help) our allies in doing things like taking out the Kim regime with surgical strikes...

That would greatly increase the amount of individual Liberty in the world... How would that not be libertarian?
  
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burnsred
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #13 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 6:23pm
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We could also encourage (and help) our allies in doing things like taking out the Kim regime with surgical strikes...

That would greatly increase the amount of individual Liberty in the world... How would that not be libertarian?
My understanding of libertarianism is that it opposes foreign interventionism.  I could be wrong about that, maybe I'm thinking about George Washington and not the libertarian philosophy.

I will agree that North Korea is a special case.  It is such a brutal and totalitarian regime that is actually starving its people while making it impossible for them to take care of themselves.  Not to mention the constant monitoring, the torture prisons in which people are put when the monitoring shows them failing to praise the leader enthusiastically enough and the fact that the leader seems to be almost trying to get them wiped out in a war they have no chance of winning or even surviving.

Therefore, almost any action that any country takes against that regime would make life better for the people of North Korea and could hardly make it worse.

  
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Don_G
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #14 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 6:35pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 4:56pm:
Libertarians generally advocate solutions that increase or protect individual liberty.

That's what creates the tension in foreign policy...

Many libertarians think there is a moral obligation to help captive people to become free. Abolitionists are one example.

Many libertarians think that intervention in matters of human bondage in other countries is not something that we have authority to get involved in.

Can you see where the tension arises?


No, I think you're just making excuses for what your country has done to so many countries. A libertarian can't support aggression in any terms.

And I also recognize that you're not a libertarian and don't even claim to be.

If you ever desire a civil conversation with me then spend a week or so repairing the damage you've done. I don't forgive and forget as easily and quickly as the Chief. Mainly because I don't need friends to prop up my agenda.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #15 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 8:01pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 6:35pm:
No, I think you're just making excuses for what your country has done to so many countries. A libertarian can't support aggression in any terms.


Right. I'm a classic liberal.

Both classic liberals and libertarians believe self defense is a natural right.

Classic liberals and libertarians both condemn what our government has done in the Regressive Era of American government as far as Empire building is concerned.

Opinions about what America has done to further the cause of individual liberty around the world are mixed, as have been the results of such attempts.
  
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stevea
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #16 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 3:59am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 19th, 2017 at 7:36am:
N. Korea's military equipment is almost all obsolete and they don't actually have enough food to supply their soldiers for long, or the means to re-supply them if they invade the South. The only real threat to the South is nuclear weapons.


That's pretty non-factual Jeff.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&countr...

They have the resources to fight a VERY intense ground war, tho' for a limited length of time wrt energy,and to interdict shipping and much air traffic for a more extended period.  Maybe they plan to take over SoKo oil refineries quickly enough to continue.   It's likely they have enough fuel stockpiled to be a problem.

What does the world economy look like w/ $1.4Trl S.Korean economy gone ?  That doesn't require nukes. NoKo nearly got to Seoul in the 1950 surprise attach the started the Korean war. 



Quote:
My preferred solution is to let S. Korea and Japan take care of the problem as they see fit...


OK, but when is it proper to get involved in a dispute ?   It's a very serious question that you've dodged before.   If you neighbor is getting beaten to a pulp by a gang, are you required to wait until the gang turns on you to act?  I don't think that is rational or prudent.

I'm NOT saying this anything like the Korean situation, just that the original UN involvement is not so clearly wrong, as is our extended involvement.


Quote:
Should we tell China and Russia to keep out of it? I don't think so.


Depends.  I've no objection to any party negotiating or making non-aggressive offers or agreements w/o force..    But should we have told Hilter to have kept out of France, England, or should we have waited for the Amerika Bomber with a nuclear payload to bomb NY ?  Should we have ignored Germany as they were sending nuclear materials to Japan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805-story.html


Just don't find that your peace-nik approach achieves anything except the success of regimes that violate human rights and liberties and will turn on you too.  The world is populated by lots of folk who know what is best for you, Jeff and far too often have the intention and ability to force their decisions on you.  Wishing won't change that.


  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #17 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 8:18am
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stevea wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 3:59am:
A million soldiers armed primarily with obsolete weapons are potentially very dangerous. South Koreans know that.
I don't believe the threat is existential... North Korea would not conquer South Korea in a war. That's just my opinion. Lets hope we never find out.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #18 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 8:28am
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stevea wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 3:59am:
OK, but when is it proper to get involved in a dispute ?   It's a very serious question that you've dodged before.   If you neighbor is getting beaten to a pulp by a gang, are you required to wait until the gang turns on you to act?  I don't think that is rational or prudent.

I'm NOT saying this anything like the Korean situation, just that the original UN involvement is not so clearly wrong, as is our extended involvement.
I dodge questions like that because they are complex. There are both moral and practical issues.
I might believe my neighbor deserves to be beaten to a pulp and decide to just watch. I might not have the means to stop the attack. Perhaps I think I can successfully act defensively to protect myself in my home, but will fail if I go to my neighbor's aid...
Rational and prudent action in such a situation as you create is not (to me anyway) simple and straightforward... How many people are in the gang? How are they armed? Am I justified in just starting to shoot the people who are bearing my neighbor? As an old man who is no longer particularly strong or agile, that's probably the only way I could help.

Edit: I've said repeatedly that I think it would be rational and prudent for Japan and South Korea to take out the Kim regime... That's easy for me to say, because it's the S. Koreans and Japanese who need to make that decision according to what looks rational and prudent to them.


  
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Don_G
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Re: The Libertarian Solution to North Korea
Reply #19 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 2:20pm
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http://news.antiwar.com/2017/09/25/north-korea-says-trump-has-declared-war-us-sa...

Americans being biased of course because this directly involves their country, don't seem to be catching exactly what's going on.

This is clearly China directing North Korea to stay even with the US on threats. China understands that all nations have the right to do that, regardless of whether or not they have the strength and the power to back up their words of bravado.

This is all happening with the complete understanding that no military action is going to take place. And consequently, this sets the bar for what is going to become the standard for the world in the next few decades.

That is, threats will fly back and forth between the US and the countries the US sees as it's enemies. But the nuclear detterrent we know as MAD will keep us all safe.

With one wild card: That is Trump and the chance that he will order a 'Gulf of Tonkin' type of incident that would provide the justification it needs to strike N.Korea. Fwiw, China and Russia won't buy it!

On the bright side of the picture, Trump has almost certainly been completely schooled in how to behave. That includes keeping the threats flying back and forth but limiting it to no more than threats.

Comments?
  
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