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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy? (Read 777 times)
ahhell
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #10 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 4:30pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:08pm:
I'll start by giving you a definition of what happens in a socially responsible capitalst country, then you tell me what you visualize it to be.

1. It's a system in which the 1% or 2% are allowed to rig government in order to beneifit them, at the expense of the poor and middle class.

That doesn't have to be your country that is guility of abusing that ideal, it could be any. But based on the fact that not a single person on this board is happy with your system of government, why shouldn't it be?

Your turn now!

Oh, and be sure to visit the Chief's Liberland by using google earth. Zero in close enough to see that all the libertarians are wearing green hats and clothes so you're not fooled by the appearance of them being trees!
Not much of a definition, like defining capitalism as "not communism" or defining communism as "good things".
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #11 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 4:38pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:08pm:
I'll start by giving you a definition of what happens in a socially responsible capitalst country, then you tell me what you visualize it to be.

1. It's a system in which the 1% or 2% are allowed to rig government in order to beneifit them, at the expense of the poor and middle class.

Exactly. The 1% or 2% you speak of are the people with power, that is, the government and their cronies. It's the Medieval system you constantly extol. It results in North Koreas and Venezuelas and Soviet Unions, which do not differ in practice from Tsarism.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #12 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 5:17pm
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I've never heard any specific charges against 'socially responsible government', that would disqualify it as libertarian. At least the sort of libertarian that is supposedly being searched for on this board.

To condemn the words doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's time to promote a real discussion on the idea?
It is hard to form specific charges against your philosophy of government since you never say what you are for other than "socially responsible government."  Those three words are all you give us so those three words are all we can focus on.

Now, you'll come back and say you've already explained it all or that it's obvious so you don't have to explain it or some other such nonsense.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #13 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 6:53pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 5:17pm:
It is hard to form specific charges against your philosophy of government since you never say what you are for other than "socially responsible government."  Those three words are all you give us so those three words are all we can focus on.

Now, you'll come back and say you've already explained it all or that it's obvious so you don't have to explain it or some other such nonsense.


I take you seriously but I'm losing my patience.

The government I profess to support is Canada's government, with some exceptions. You would be safe in suggesting that I support it 'almost unconditionally. What do you want from me, a recitation of the Magna Carta?

Any policy of Canada's government that you would like to hear me comment upon is fair game. Ask away! You must realize that I can't just start rhyming off everything about any government.

I've politely explained to you the workings of collective agreements and why libertarians always have to allow and respect the rights of workers. No real libertarian can question that. There's no reason yet for you to suspect I won't do that on any topic that is at question as to libertarian support or otherwise.
  
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #14 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 7:37pm
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I take you seriously but I'm losing my patience.

The government I profess to support is Canada's government, with some exceptions. You would be safe in suggesting that I support it 'almost unconditionally. What do you want from me, a recitation of the Magna Carta?
Don_G, this is absolutely the first time, I've read you saying that your philosophy is identical to that of the Canadian government.  I believe you haven't gotten past the idea that I know what your philosophy is.  I've only ever read your posts that are in response to mine.



Quote:
Any policy of Canada's government that you would like to hear me comment upon is fair game. Ask away! You must realize that I can't just start rhyming off everything about any government.
I know little to nothing about the Canadian government.  My understanding of it is that it is liberal compared to the U.S. government, though we are quickly catching up, unfortunately.  I've never heard anyone say that it was a libertarian government.  I think you may be conflating the terms libertarian and liberal.

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I've politely explained to you the workings of collective agreements and why libertarians always have to allow and respect the rights of workers. No real libertarian can question that. There's no reason yet for you to suspect I won't do that on any topic that is at question as to libertarian support or otherwise.
You claimed that your claimed right of a union representative to force a factory owner to cease operating his factory comes from a pool of diverse people.  Yet you don't accept that logic for other rights.  That's where that debate left off.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #15 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 10:16pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 7:37pm:
Don_G, this is absolutely the first time, I've read you saying that your philosophy is identical to that of the Canadian government.  I believe you haven't gotten past the idea that I know what your philosophy is.  I've only ever read your posts that are in response to mine.



I know little to nothing about the Canadian government.  My understanding of it is that it is liberal compared to the U.S. government, though we are quickly catching up, unfortunately.  I've never heard anyone say that it was a libertarian government.  I think you may be conflating the terms libertarian and liberal.


Jeff uses the two terms interchangably. Anything that is truly libertarian and is possible in a large society or country, is not at odds with Canada's government. If you know of something then tell me about it. I think the biggest problem is that you don't understand what libertarian even is. SkyChief obviously doesn't because he doesn't believe that libertarianism can ever work for a country. Yet you seem to ignore that when you take his side against me!

Quote:
You claimed that your claimed right of a union representative to force a factory owner to cease operating his factory comes from a pool of diverse people.  Yet you don't accept that logic for other rights.  That's where that debate left off.


That's not what I claimed. That's your words for what I told you is the law. Would you like to go over all of it again? I think what you really want to do is deny workers their rights.

You can do that by enacting the socalled right to work laws. That's all it takes to make any group of workers ineffective at demanding rights.

All you really need to do is admit that you don't think workers have rights and you're done with me.

You people who claim to be libertarian simply refuse to acknowledge that some rights sometimes have to be denied some people because some rights conflict. Just choose to uphold the employers' rights over workers' rights and you're done! You certainly aren't offering any other solution.

I am offering a solution and it's called a labour contract or a collective agreement.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #16 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 10:23pm
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A simple scenario that poses a question for libertarians:

The workers want a raise of a dollar an hour because they believe it's their right to keep up with inflation.

Their employer says they can only have 50 cents an hour because he can't afford to pay any more than that and he has a right to operate a business.

Whose rights are upheld and who loses their rights?

I'll provide the proper libertarian answer after others have had a chance to think about it and answer.

If anybody is going to claim the title of libertarian, then they are going to have to answer some difficult questions.

  
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stevea
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #17 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:34am
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[quote]A simple scenario that poses a question for libertarians:

The workers want a raise of a dollar an hour because they believe it's their right to keep up with inflation.[/quote]

[b]There is no such "right"; paradox solved.[/b]

Do you not understand the concept of 'creative destruction' ?  Do you not comprehend how it is a massive advantage to all (to 'society') , despite that it means employees & employers are often displaced ?

There is a clear relationship between wages and the value you add in any free-market of labor.  If your wage isn't keeping up with inflation, that is natures way of telling you that you are not contributing much value to society and that YOU need to change.  Loads of jobs have disappeared or are in decline due to changes in technology or market demands; switchboard operators,data-entry,  file-clerks, many categories of machining, assembly, food processing, etc.    As the need for these jobs decline, the supply/demand equilibrium changes and therefore so does the price equilibrium point (the wage).

What unions-monopolies do is create market distortions, specifically market-failure that prevents any equilibrium price(wage) for labor.  This destroys price signalling and creates systemic social inefficiency.  The high wages+benefits that union-monopolists gain is offset socially by others getting less, and there being fewer jobs.  Unions are nothing but a form of (unfortunately)lawful anti-competitive behavior.

I suggest you read ANY mainstream economist to verify this, and especially you'll want to review what some "real" libertarian economists like Rothbard, Friedman, the various Austrians have to say on the matter.


[quote]Their employer says they can only have 50 cents an hour because he[highlight] can't afford to pay any more[/highlight] than that and he has a right to operate a business.[/quote]

Ridiculous ! What some potential employer makes, loses or "can afford" has absolutely nothing to do with a wage/labor negotiation.  When you buy a loaf of bread no one asks what you can afford to pay.  You'll need to stop thinking in terms of this cartoon-reality of economics and finance.


[quote]Whose rights are upheld and who loses their rights?[/quote]

All REAL rights are preserved.  The employee has every right to vend his labor on a free market; to ask for any wage he/she chooses and to accept/reject any offers made (if any).  A potential employer in the labor-for-wage market has every right to make offers of any wage(etc) to anyone. Only when both parties VOLUNTARILY agree is a free-market contract struck.

On a non-continuing contract your employee has every right to askfor a differnret wage, the emplyer may counter or not.   THe employee is free to sellhis labor elsewhere if he doesn't like the offer.  THe empoyer s free to hire others.


[quote]I'll provide the proper libertarian answer after others have had a chance to think about it and answer.[/quote]

Provide a laugh-track please - you have absolutely no basis to call your ideas libertarian.


[quote]If anybody is going to claim the title of libertarian, then they are going to have to answer some difficult questions.[/quote]

YOU FIRST.  So far YOU have failed to define your terms, to answer either simple or hard  questions about your ideas.  Why should anyone else ?

Where does your "right to keep up with inflation" originate,and what are the economic consequences  ?
Where does your claim of a majoritarian right to dictate to others originate ?
You calling extortion & authoritarianism "libertarian" is preposterous and defies the definition YOU cited.
  
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #18 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 3:09am
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ahhell wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 4:30pm:
Not much of a definition, like defining capitalism as "not communism" or defining communism as "good things".


It's worse than that - it's a 'negative definition' (npn-definition) based on a complete misreading of reality to fit a preconceived bias.

1-2% are not ALLOWED to influence government, it violates the politicians oaths of office, it's DISALLOWED BUT no one polices the politicians effectively.

Representative democracy is already rule by a small group, much smaller than 1-2%.   If they are influenced by big money, or a loud minority, or the press, or hollywood then they are not serving their constituents, but instead serving their own self-interests (typically money, re-election, ego).  The problem is NOT that politicians can be influenced - that's a mere fact of human existence, it's that we have no way to address the violations.

--

On the title question,
Democracy (majoritarian rule) is BY DEFINITION rule by a majority in a way that denies the interests of a minority.  Democracy is therefore inherently evil.

WHEN we have a situation that requires a social/communal decisions, then I see no better way than democracy (perhaps there are better ways) to make the decision.  BUT we need to strictly limit democratic decisions to only those FEW issues that require these communal decisions. 

Typically 'public goods' are the issue of communal choice. As technology evolves, its pretty clear that we need fewer and less onerous public decisions.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Is Libertarianism Possible Without Democracy?
Reply #19 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 3:17am
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 10:23pm:
A simple scenario that poses a question for libertarians:

The workers want a raise of a dollar an hour because they believe it's their right to keep up with inflation.

The workers don't have any right to keep up with inflation.  If they feel the employer doesn't pay them enough for their labor/services, they have a right to quit and work for a different employer who pays a dollar/hr more. 

That's how Free Market/libertarianism works.    Smiley
  
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