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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System? (Read 371 times)
burnsred
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What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Sep 21st, 2017 at 9:11pm
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If "taxation is theft" does that mean that a libertarian government would collect no taxes at all?  How would it then operate?

Are there any means that are acceptable for government to obtain operating funds?

If not, is "taxation is theft" by definition an anarchist position?

I don't mean to spam the board, I just have several questions I'd like libertarians to answer.

Thanks!

  
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Crystallas
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #1 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 11:07pm
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Taxes can be voluntary. That is the only case where taxation is not theft.

This topic shows up often and has been discussed till people turn blue. The conclusion is nearly always taxation is indeed theft, but that theft is necessary for some and others not.  You might even be able to search the forum and find a civil discussion without derailment. Smiley GL
  
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SkyChief
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #2 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:22am
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The only time Taxation is "theft" is when the individual being taxed objects to it.  Simple as that.

When I am taxed, it's theft because I want to keep my wealth and the fruits of my labor. The government sticks a gun in my back and says "Stand and deliver".   So I do as commanded.

When Don_G is taxed, no theft has occurred because he actually wants his wealth to be re-distributed.

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... is "taxation is theft" by definition an anarchist position?

IMO, No. Anarchist means someone who rejects all authority and government.  One doesn't need to be an anarchist to be a libertarian.
  
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Don_G
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #3 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 1:55pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 21st, 2017 at 9:11pm:
If "taxation is theft" does that mean that a libertarian government would collect no taxes at all?  How would it then operate?

Are there any means that are acceptable for government to obtain operating funds?

If not, is "taxation is theft" by definition an anarchist position?

I don't mean to spam the board, I just have several questions I'd like libertarians to answer.

Thanks!



You've gotten two answers from the Chief and Crysallis. They both are saying that taxes aren't theft if they are voluntary. LOL I'm missing the serious part but maybe you aren't?

You're not spamming the board, you're asking a basic question that has been avoided.

Yes, taxes are necessary.
Yes, saying that taxation is theft is an anarchist statement.
  
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Don_G
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #4 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:22am:
The only time Taxation is "theft" is when the individual being taxed objects to it.  Simple as that.

When I am taxed, it's theft because I want to keep my wealth and the fruits of my labor. The government sticks a gun in my back and says "Stand and deliver".   So I do as commanded.

When Don_G is taxed, no theft has occurred because he actually wants his wealth to be re-distributed.

IMO, No. Anarchist means someone who rejects all authority and government.  One doesn't need to be an anarchist to be a libertarian.


Saying that taxation is theft is anarchist. It's obviously saying that there should be no taxation. Right?

No taxation is equivalent to anarchy. You've been had again. How in hell are you going to squirm out of this one this time?

Your agenda is comletely impossible and burnsred is beginning to expose it for being that, one issue at a time. I've fallen in love! You're starting to fall into hysteria and total confusion.

You're a peach! Your simpleminded approach is causing you to crash and burn!
  
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ahhell
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #5 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:32pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:00pm:
Saying that taxation is theft is anarchist. It's obviously saying that there should be no taxation. Right?

No taxation is equivalent to anarchy. You've been had again. How in hell are you going to squirm out of this one this time?

Your agenda is comletely impossible and burnsred is beginning to expose it for being that, one issue at a time. I've fallen in love! You're starting to fall into hysteria and total confusion.

You're a peach! Your simpleminded approach is causing you to crash and burn!

This is the typical position of a progressive, conflating libertarians with anarchists.  Saying that all taxation is theft therefore there should be no taxation would be an anarchist position. 

Saying that all taxation is theft but that some taxation is necessary is a libertarian position.  Not the opinion of all libertarians of course but many.   

In my understanding the principle difference between libertarians and anarchists is that libertarians accept that some level of government is necessary and inevitable. 

@skychief.  All taxation is theft whether the victims agrees to it or not.  If the government asks for money, they will take it. If don refuses, they will force him to comply.  Even if he is happy to give it up that threat of force remains.
  
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Don_G
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #6 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:55pm
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As I said: Yes, taxes are necessary.
Yes, saying that taxation is theft is an anarchist statement.

Which is the same as the Chief says except that his taxation is voluntary. I take that to mean that people would volunteer to pay taxes?

And specifically with the Chief, his form of taxation would be a national sales tax. You wouldn't have to pay that tax when you bought something because it would be voluntary. The sales person would ask you:

Sir/Madam, would you like to pay the tax now?

And then the customer would maybe say sure, I have no problem paying a tax. Here, take my wallet and just take as much as you think is necessary! 

This has potential of working in Liberland for a start. Liberland can be viewed by anybody by using the location their government gives on google earth.

You have to zero right in to see because until you get within 5 feet elevation from the land, it looks a lot like trees. but it's not! It's libertarians wearing green hats and clothes! 

Jeff will be right into this, it goes good with his Martian theories for 911!

  
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SkyChief
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #7 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:56pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:00pm:
Saying that taxation is theft is anarchist. It's obviously saying that there should be no taxation. Right?

No taxation is equivalent to anarchy. You've been had again. How in hell are you going to squirm out of this one this time?

Your agenda is comletely impossible and burnsred is beginning to expose it for being that, one issue at a time. I've fallen in love! You're starting to fall into hysteria and total confusion.

You're a peach! Your simpleminded approach is causing you to crash and burn!

This is delusional jibber-jabber.  Are you familiar with the term minarchist? Look it up. It may help you understand why someone who considers taxes to be theft is not necessarily an anarchist.

Austin Petersen explains the differences between anarchism, minarchism, and socialism:
  
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SkyChief
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #8 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:00pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:55pm:
And specifically with the Chief, his form of taxation would be a national sales tax. You wouldn't have to pay that tax when you bought something because it would be voluntary. The sales person would ask you:

Sir/Madam, would you like to pay the tax now?

And then the customer would maybe say sure, I have no problem paying a tax. Here, take my wallet and just take as much as you think is necessary! 

You deliberately misrepresented what I said to support your flawed assertions.  I sincerely thank you for doing doing that. 

I have caught you in another lie.
  
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Don_G
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Re: What, if any, Taxes are Acceptable in a Libertarian System?
Reply #9 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 3:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 22nd, 2017 at 2:56pm:
This is delusional jibber-jabber.  Are you familiar with the term minarchist? Look it up. It may help you understand why someone who considers taxes to be theft is not necessarily an anarchist.

Austin Petersen explains the differences between anarchism, minarchism, and socialism:


Not right now, I'm in Liberland talking to the green people.

The US is in such a complete bloody mess now, that ordinarily sane individuals are grasping at never-never land bullshit nonsense for help.

Your Liberland clinched it for me Chief! But I'm having fun with you so let's keep working on figuring it all out.

I must say though, that the people we see in Liberland are pretty clever in camoflaging themselves to look like trees!

Whaaatttttttaaaaaaaaaa!
  
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