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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?" (Read 880 times)
burnsred
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Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Sep 23rd, 2017 at 11:18am
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In order to run as a candidate of the Libertarian Party of Texas, one has to answer the following question: 
Quote:
Do you agree with the statement: "I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals."?
If the United States takes action against North Korea would we be guilty of using initiation of force?

I say no.

North Korea has initiated force by not only threatening violence but also demonstrating that it is capable of carrying out its threats.  A threat is an initiation of force and we are obligated to respond to it.  Of course, we badly need to discuss how our interventionist policies created this situation or at least put us in the middle of this situation.  But in the short run, we must do what we need to do to defend ourselves against North Korea's initiation of force. 

Even an implied threat is an initiation of force.  When a grandma that works for the IRS sends us a letter demanding that we send in the $7.89 they calculate we owe over and above the $17,365 we already sent in, there is an implied threat of force whether granny is thinking of that or not.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #1 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 11:33am
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burnsred wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 11:18am:
In order to run as a candidate of the Libertarian Party of Texas, one has to answer the following question: 
If the United States takes action against North Korea would we be guilty of using initiation of force?

I say no.

I say YES. The US needs to withdraw all troops from the Korean peninsula and Japan.  With the US threat gone, Rocket Man will stop the sabre-rattling and brinksmanship.

Even if he didn't, the combined forces of Japan and South Korea would prevail over NoKo.  Rocket Man knows this - he is not suicidal - he would not initiate an attack against Japan and South Korea. 

But the US CAN (and should) sell weapons/missile systems to both Japan and South Korea.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #2 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:04pm
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I say YES. The US needs to withdraw all troops from the Korean peninsula and Japan.  With the US threat gone, Rocket Man will stop the sabre-rattling and brinksmanship.
It is very difficult to disagree with that as a libertarian.  Fortunately, doing difficult things is kind of a hobby of mine. 

If the U.S. were to withdraw all troops starting right now, Rocket man might be satisfied with that.  But I don't think his aim is actually for the U.S. troops to leave.  That's just an intermediate step in his goal to reunite the Korean Peninsula under his rule.  In that case he will view a U.S. withdrawal as a winning a battle in his war on freedom.

If he carries out his promise to explode a nuclear device over the Pacific ocean, that will be an endangerment of all nations in that area even assuming that his military is competent to explode it correctly and in the chosen place.  I'm not sure they are that competent and any mistake when exploding a hydroen bomb could be catastrophic. 



  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:17pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 11:18am:
In order to run as a candidate of the Libertarian Party of Texas, one has to answer the following question: 
If the United States takes action against North Korea would we be guilty of using initiation of force?

I say no.

North Korea has initiated force by not only threatening violence but also demonstrating that it is capable of carrying out its threats.  A threat is an initiation of force and we are obligated to respond to it.  Of course, we badly need to discuss how our interventionist policies created this situation or at least put us in the middle of this situation.  But in the short run, we must do what we need to do to defend ourselves against North Korea's initiation of force. 

Even an implied threat is an initiation of force.  When a grandma that works for the IRS sends us a letter demanding that we send in the $7.89 they calculate we owe over and above the $17,365 we already sent in, there is an implied threat of force whether granny is thinking of that or not.


Surely you can't be serious Shirley! The US has threatened N.Korea hundreds of time to an extent much greater than any N.Korean threats. Not to even mention the US completely destroying their country and murdering millions.

With that goes any pretense of you being antiwar. And that's a direct conflict to claiming to be a libertarian.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:23pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:04pm:
It is very difficult to disagree with that as a libertarian.  Fortunately, doing difficult things is kind of a hobby of mine. 

If the U.S. were to withdraw all troops starting right now, Rocket man might be satisfied with that.  But I don't think his aim is actually for the U.S. troops to leave.  That's just an intermediate step in his goal to reunite the Korean Peninsula under his rule.  In that case he will view a U.S. withdrawal as a winning a battle in his war on freedom.

If he carries out his promise to explode a nuclear device over the Pacific ocean, that will be an endangerment of all nations in that area even assuming that his military is competent to explode it correctly and in the chosen place.  I'm not sure they are that competent and any mistake when exploding a hydroen bomb could be catastrophic. 





He would only be repeating what the US has done in the Pacific, and China would ensure that it was done properly.

Are you trying to up the ante on demonizing him by saying he might get it wrong. What would that be, it not exploding?

He (China) won't because that's not their motive. China's motive is playing N.Korea against Japan and S.Korea, and therefore against the US and it seems to be working.

Okinawa is raising hell again bigtime against the US forces there.

I think the US sorely needs a president who can do as he's instructed by the wise people who are trying to stage manage this situation. Trump couldn't even follow instructions to not shoot off his mouth against Kim at the UNGA.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:54pm
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He would only be repeating what the US has done in the Pacific, and China would ensure that it was done properly.
So you're not buying that China is sanctioning North Korea?

Quote:
Are you trying to up the ante on demonizing him by saying he might get it wrong. What would that be, it not exploding?
I'm not sure how much time I should spend explaining things that might go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  I'm guessing that you might mock the idea, but you won't state outright that you can't imagine anything going wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  If you will state that like, "No, nothing can go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb" then I'll give you some examples.
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He (China) won't because that's not their motive. China's motive is playing N.Korea against Japan and S.Korea, and therefore against the US and it seems to be working.
I'm glad you're such a mind reader.
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Okinawa is raising hell again bigtime against the US forces there.
So should the U.S. taxpayers.  What's your point?
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I think the US sorely needs a president who can do as he's instructed by the wise people who are trying to stage manage this situation. Trump couldn't even follow instructions to not shoot off his mouth against Kim at the UNGA.
Who are these stage managers that you imagine have authority over the elected U.S. president?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #6 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:10pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 12:54pm:
So you're not buying that China is sanctioning North Korea?


No of course not! Not in a meaningful way. China is selling it as sanctions but everybody should know that China is not cooperating. They do but they can't say it. You need to begin with understanding that this is much bigger than the media pap and how the propaganda is being spoon fed to the people.

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I'm not sure how much time I should spend explaining things that might go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  I'm guessing that you might mock the idea, but you won't state outright that you can't imagine anything going wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  If you will state that like, "No, nothing can go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb" then I'll give you some examples.


Good! Go right ahead and give me the examples for what it's going to be worth? How about, the hydrogen bomb will multify itself in intensity and destroy much more than it's intended size would have been planned? Which, I wouldn't buy into anyway. I think the threat of what you are imagining is just part of the notion that Kim is insane and built the bomb himself and left out a critical screw or nut or bolt.

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I'm glad you're such a mind reader.


Attack the idea, not me. Remember how we both value that on a forum?

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So should the U.S. taxpayers.  What's your point?
Who are these stage managers that you imagine have authority over the elected U.S. president?


If you had read the news I read at antiwar.com, you would have read that Trump was instructed not to attack Kim at the UNGA. My point is, the whole manipulated situation with N.Korea is being stage handled by China with a very definite purpose in mind. And a very big part of that is turning S.Korea and Japan against the US and toward China. It's working with S.Korea as we have read, and I'm suggesting that the commotion in Okinawa has something to do with it too. Agree?

And now for your unintended consequences of the H bomb, if you must.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #7 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:25pm
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There are other snafus that go along with detonating powerful nukes - namely, EMPs.

Any aircraft will lose flight control even if they are not damaged by the blast wave. Control surfaces on large aircraft are actuated by hydraulics controlled by electronic signals.  An EMP will knock out the electronics which allows the pilot (or auto-pilot) to fly the aircraft. Any aircraft disabled by EMP burst will crash.

An air-burst H-bomb detonation in the middle of the ocean will result in great loss of human life.

I hope Rocket Man considers this before he starts playing with his big toys.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #8 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:25pm:
There are other snafus that go along with detonating powerful nukes - namely, EMPs.[/quote

Right Chief, but wrong anyway. We're not talking about your limited knowledge of H bombs, and most of us know that fact anyway. We're talking about a mistake by N.Korea that would cause the bomb to act in an unexpected way.

[quote]Any aircraft will lose flight control even if they are not damaged by the blast wave. Control surfaces on large aircraft are actuated by hydraulics controlled by electronic signals.  An EMP will knock out the electronics which allows the pilot (or auto-pilot) to fly the aircraft.


SO WHAT??

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Any aircraft disabled by EMP burst will crash.


SO WHAT?

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An air-burst H-bomb detonation in the middle of the ocean will result in great loss of human life.


No it won't you fool. It didn't when the US detonated one!

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I hope Rocket Man considers this before he starts playing with his big toys.


China will.

You can do better than that drivel Chief. Think it over and don't start your kneejerk bullshit just because you are angry with me. If you don't then next time you will reallly be made out to be the fool!  Roll Eyes
  
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burnsred
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #9 - Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:44pm
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So you're not buying that China is sanctioning North Korea?


No of course not! Not in a meaningful way. China is selling it as sanctions but everybody should know that China is not cooperating. They do but they can't say it. You need to begin with understanding that this is much bigger than the media pap and how the propaganda is being spoon fed to the people.
No I agree with you on that.  Since China likes to falsely posture, why are you so trusting of their promises to control North Korea's nuclear weapons program?

Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how much time I should spend explaining things that might go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  I'm guessing that you might mock the idea, but you won't state outright that you can't imagine anything going wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb.  If you will state that like, "No, nothing can go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb" then I'll give you some examples.


Good! Go right ahead and give me the examples for what it's going to be worth? How about, the hydrogen bomb will multify itself in intensity and destroy much more than it's intended size would have been planned? Which, I wouldn't buy into anyway. I think the threat of what you are imagining is just part of the notion that Kim is insane and built the bomb himself and left out a critical screw or nut or bolt.
I said I would give examples if you would state  "No, nothing can go wrong when exploding a hydrogen bomb."  You won't say that because you know things can go wrong when exploding hydrogen bombs. 

Quote:
Quote:
I'm glad you're such a mind reader.


Attack the idea, not me. Remember how we both value that on a forum?
You're right.  Sometimes sarcasm is tempting shorthand when someone makes an argument that they clearly don't believe themselves.  Like I could have said, " . . . because of course nothing can go wrong when a crazy dictator explodes a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific Ocean" but that would have been sarcasm so I avoided it.

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Quote:
So should the U.S. taxpayers.  What's your point?
Who are these stage managers that you imagine have authority over the elected U.S. president?


If you had read the news I read at antiwar.com, you would have read that Trump was instructed not to attack Kim at the UNGA.
How did the U.N. gain the authority to instruct our duly elected President?

Quote:
My point is, the whole manipulated situation with N.Korea is being stage handled by China with a very definite purpose in mind. And a very big part of that is turning S.Korea and Japan against the US and toward China. It's working with S.Korea as we have read, and I'm suggesting that the commotion in Okinawa has something to do with it too. Agree?
That wouldn't surprise me at all.  You're trying to expand my point to something you want to debate.  My point for this thread begins and ends with the question of whether using military force against North Korea would be initiation for force as understood by libertarians. 

Just to clarify, who are the stage managers that you want Trump to follow their instructions?  The UNGA or the Chinese, because in one post you claimed both.  It's the Chinese either way, though right?  Because China has strong influence on the UNGA. 

Quote:
And now for your unintended consequences of the H bomb, if you must.
Again, only if you seriously claim you can't think of any.
  
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