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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?" (Read 464 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #20 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 11:56am
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Don_G wrote on Sep 23rd, 2017 at 1:39pm:
No it won't you fool. It didn't when the US detonated one!

I should have stated aircraft in the vicinity of a H-bomb air burst will be downed by the EMP - not every aircraft in the air at the time of the blast.

You got me on that one, Don_G.   Wink
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #21 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 12:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 11:56am:
I should have stated aircraft in the vicinity of a H-bomb air burst will be downed by the EMP - not every aircraft in the air at the time of the blast.

You got me on that one, Don_G.   Wink


I wasn't trying to get you that time. I was trying to keep you on topic. Seriously, you didn't understand that?
  
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #22 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 12:12pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 12:08pm:
I wasn't trying to get you that time. I was trying to keep you on topic. Seriously, you didn't understand that?

The threat of Rocket Man detonating a H bomb and "Initiation of Force" is very on-topic, actually.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #23 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 12:35pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 12:12pm:
The threat of Rocket Man detonating a H bomb and "Initiation of Force" is very on-topic, actually.


It wasn't the topic at the time. I'm not going to waste time going around in circles with you. I value your opinions when you stay on topic and don't allow yourself to be sucked into Jeff's nonsense.

For an explanation of what I think you need to do, just look at how stevea reacts and then do the opposite. Nuff said!
  
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #24 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 1:50pm
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My statement about Canada was in response to this:

Quote:
How did the U.N. gain the authority to instruct our duly elected President?


It didn't. Government authorities within the US did. I can't remember which ones.
If you can cite unknown government people in the U.S. as proof of  your claims, I don't see why I can't cite unknown government people within Canada.

Thank you for acknowledging that exploding a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific is not without risks.  Here are some specifics:

Although public concern about fallout from nuclear testing grew in the early 1950s,[1][2] fallout was discovered after the Trinity test in 1945.[2] Photographic film manufacturers would later report 'fogged' films; this was traced to packaging materials sourced from Indiana crops, contaminated by the Trinity and later tests at the Nevada Test Site, over 1,000 miles away.[2] Intense fallout from the 1953 Simon test was documented as far as Albany, New York.[2]

The fallout from the March 1954 Bravo test in the Pacific would have "scientific, political and social implications that have continued for more than 40 years."[3] The multi-megaton test caused fallout to occur on the islands of the Rongerik and Rongelap atolls, and a Japanese fishing boat known as the Daigo Fukuryū Maru (Lucky Dragon).[3] Prior to this test, there was "insufficient" appreciation of the dangers of fallout.[3]

The test became an international incident. In a PBS interview, the historian Martha Smith argued: "In Japan, it becomes a huge issue in terms of not just the government and its protest against the United States, but all different groups and all different peoples in Japan start to protest. It becomes a big issue in the media. There are all kinds of letters and protests that come from, not surprisingly, Japanese fishermen, the fishermen's wives; there are student groups, all different types of people; that protest against the Americans' use of the Pacific for nuclear testing. They're very concerned about, first of all, why the United States even has the right to be carrying out those kinds of tests in the Pacific. They're also concerned about the health and environmental impact."[4] The Prime Minister of India "voiced the heightened international concern" when he called for the elimination of all nuclear testing worldwide.[1]

Knowledge about fallout and its effects grew, and with it concern about the global environment and long-term genetic damage.[5] Talks between the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, and the Soviet Union began in May 1955 on the subject of an international agreement to end nuclear tests.[5] On August 5, 1963, representatives of the United States, the Soviet Union, and the United Kingdom signed the Limited Test Ban Treaty, forbidding testing of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, in space, and underwater.[6] Agreement was facilitated by the decision to allow underground testing, eliminating the need for on-site inspections that concerned the Soviets.[6] Underground testing was allowed, provided that it does not cause "radioactive debris to be present outside the territorial limits of the State under whose jurisdiction or control such explosion is conducted."[5]


Now, I have a feeling that, under your version of libertarianism, international agreements are all but sacred, yes? 

  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #25 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 2:13pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 1:50pm:
My statement about Canada was in response to this:

If you can cite unknown government people in the U.S. as proof of  your claims, I don't see why I can't cite unknown government people within Canada.

Thank you for acknowledging that exploding a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific is not without risks.  Here are some specifics:

Although public concern about fallout from nuclear testing grew in the early 1950s,[1][2] fallout was discovered after the Trinity test in 1945.[2] Photographic film manufacturers would later report 'fogged' films; this was traced to packaging materials sourced from Indiana crops, contaminated by the Trinity and later tests at the Nevada Test Site, over 1,000 miles away.[2] Intense fallout from the 1953 Simon test was documented as far as Albany, New York.[2]

The fallout from the March 1954 Bravo test in the Pacific would have "scientific, political and social implications that have continued for more than 40 years."[3] The multi-megaton test caused fallout to occur on the islands of the Rongerik and Rongelap atolls, and a Japanese fishing boat known as the Daigo Fukuryū Maru (Lucky Dragon).[3] Prior to this test, there was "insufficient" appreciation of the dangers of fallout.[3]

The test became an international incident. In a PBS interview, the historian Martha Smith argued: "In Japan, it becomes a huge issue in terms of not just the government and its protest against the United States, but all different groups and all different peoples in Japan start to protest. It becomes a big issue in the media. There are all kinds of letters and protests that come from, not surprisingly, Japanese fishermen, the fishermen's wives; there are student groups, all different types of people; that protest against the Americans' use of the Pacific for nuclear testing. They're very concerned about, first of all, why the United States even has the right to be carrying out those kinds of tests in the Pacific. They're also concerned about the health and environmental impact."[4] The Prime Minister of India "voiced the heightened international concern" when he called for the elimination of all nuclear testing worldwide.[1]

Knowledge about fallout and its effects grew, and with it concern about the global environment and long-term genetic damage.[5] Talks between the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, and the Soviet Union began in May 1955 on the subject of an international agreement to end nuclear tests.[5] On August 5, 1963, representatives of the United States, the Soviet Union, and the United Kingdom signed the Limited Test Ban Treaty, forbidding testing of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, in space, and underwater.[6] Agreement was facilitated by the decision to allow underground testing, eliminating the need for on-site inspections that concerned the Soviets.[6] Underground testing was allowed, provided that it does not cause "radioactive debris to be present outside the territorial limits of the State under whose jurisdiction or control such explosion is conducted."[5]


Now, I have a feeling that, under your version of libertarianism, international agreements are all but sacred, yes? 



I really don't get your point on wanting to pursue this? I have no disagreement with any of the bolded. And I'm pretty much aware of what it's saying.

International agreements are all but sacred? What do you mean? What is your intent?

I wouldn't say that international agreements are 'sacred'.  I would say though that international agrrements should be honoured as agreements. Sorry but I just am not getting what you want to hear from me? Are you trying to find disagreement where there isn't any?

Does all this relate to North Korea or are you hinting at how it relates to Iran. Please explain your intent?
  
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #26 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 2:21pm
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I really don't get your point on wanting to pursue this? I have no disagreement with any of the bolded. And I'm pretty much aware of what it's saying.
You asked me repeatedly for a list of things that can go wrong when a crazy dictator explodes a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific. 

Quote:
International agreements are all but sacred? What do you mean? What is your intent?

I wouldn't say that international agreements are 'sacred'.  I would say though that international agrrements should be honoured as agreements. Sorry but I just am not getting what you want to hear from me? Are you trying to find disagreement where there isn't any?

Does all this relate to North Korea or are you hinting at how it relates to Iran. Please explain your intent?
You have posted in strong support of North Korea's nuclear weapons program.  It is in violation of international agreements which you say should be honored.  So how do you clarify this seeming contradiction?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #27 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 2:42pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 2:21pm:
You asked me repeatedly for a list of things that can go wrong when a crazy dictator explodes a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific. 


Actually I didn't mention a crazy dictator and that's because I'm aware of Kim not being crazy. That's just part of the stage managing by your country's propagandists. Exploding an H bomb will likely the the same for Kim as it was for the US on bikini atoll. It's still a non-habitable wasteland.

Quote:
You have posted in strong support of North Korea's nuclear weapons program.  It is in violation of international agreements which you say should be honored.  So how do you clarify this seeming contradiction?


No contradiction. I don't support detonationg an H bomb in the Pacific and never have, regardless of the party doing the detonating.

I completely support North Korea's nuclear program because it's the necessary deterrent to US aggression. It's related directly to what happened to Iraq and so many other countries.

But again, on a more elevated level of conversation, which I'm only going to get into with you:

It's stage managing on the part of all concerned. North Korea has no need for nuclear weapons because China has their back.

Now, put your thinking cap on: Both China and the US are stage managing this entire thing because of each of their respective goals for North Korea.

First of all, North Korea obviously doesn't need nuclear weapons but it's serving China's purpose exactly as concerns the US. They are rather successfully causing South Korea to alienate themselves away from the US, and the sam is true for Japan. Okinawa specifically.

From the US perspective, the US is able to keep stating the threat of an attack on North Korea with 'some' credibility. That credibility comes only in having the world believe in the charge of Kim being insane.

We all know what the US wants for the Koreas and we also know what China wants. They are at odds!

And we should all know that the stalemate will last for the foreseeable future. Your thoughts?
  
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #28 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 4:15pm
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No contradiction. I don't support detonationg an H bomb in the Pacific and never have, regardless of the party doing the detonating.

I completely support North Korea's nuclear program
Part of the crazy dictator's nuclear weapons program is detonating an H-bomb over the Pacific.  Or at least threatening to.  So  you don't support all of North Korea's nuclear weapons program.

What I wonder is what actions should be taken and by whom to prevent that event.  Or should we wait until after he does it and ask the UN what to do?

Quote:
Now, put your thinking cap on: Both China and the US are stage managing this entire thing because of each of their respective goals for North Korea.

First of all, North Korea obviously doesn't need nuclear weapons but it's serving China's purpose exactly as concerns the US. They are rather successfully causing South Korea to alienate themselves away from the US, and the sam is true for Japan. Okinawa specifically.

From the US perspective, the US is able to keep stating the threat of an attack on North Korea with 'some' credibility. That credibility comes only in having the world believe in the charge of Kim being insane.

We all know what the US wants for the Koreas and we also know what China wants. They are at odds!

And we should all know that the stalemate will last for the foreseeable future. Your thoughts?

I agree with all that.  It is very possible that the Crazy Dictator is only acting crazy because his Chinese sponsors told him to.   The insanity may be faked, but the nuclear bomb testing and the testing/demonstrating of rockets and missiles that could carry those bombs are very real.

The short term solution is for Trump to act just as crazy as the Crazy Dictator is acting.  I'm glad it's Trump and not Obama because I don't think Obama could have pulled it off in his mom jeans.  Since Obama's policy toward North Korea and Trumps were identical before NK started being open about it's nuclear weapons program, I have to think that the North Koreans (or the Chinese if you prefer) are testing Trump.

  
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Re: Can we Deal with North Korea without "Initiation of Force?"
Reply #29 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 5:40pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 2:42pm:
Actually I didn't mention a crazy dictator and that's because I'm aware of Kim not being crazy.
You have proof that anyone in the Kim Dynasty was ever sane? Really? Would you share it with us? Thanks.
  
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