Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum? (Read 694 times)
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5874
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Sep 24th, 2017 at 3:16pm
Print Post  
Am I the only one who can unequivcably  express the granting of rights to all the people, without having to disqualify some people based only on a rightist/leftist point of view?

Can anyone come out and say that they aren't selective of what rights they grant to others and what rights they refuse others?

No libertarian can profess to disallow unions. Period! No real libertarian would even want to try. The worker represents the biggest group that can be defined and that makes it next to criminal for any libertarian to attempt to exclude them and their basic rights.

This is not about being a leftist or a rightist. A libertarian has to be colour blind to that distinction. That which counts as being libertarian is neither right nor left. It's only about freedom and rights!

Why can't any of the pseudo-libertarians on this board come to terms with that basic truth?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4738
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #1 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 4:00pm
Print Post  
Holy Cow. Don_G starts yet another thread about himself.   

Delusional narcissist.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #2 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 4:04pm
Print Post  
The main flaw in your version of libertarianism is that you cannot state any theory or opinion about where rights come from.  You imply that they are "granted" but you have  no clear idea of who the granters of rights are and how the granters of rights were themselves granted the right to grant rights to others.

For other libertarians, it is relatively easy in most cases to determine whether a claimed right is really a right that our philosophy respects and defends.  All we have to do is ask ourselves, "Does this claimed right require the person exercising that right to initiate force, either personally or through government, against another human?"  If so, it isn't a right under libertarianism.  If not, then it almost certainly is a right.

The simplest example is the right to free speech.  If I claim the right to speak freely, I can exercise it with no initiation of force against anyone.  I just literally start talking and don't stop until I choose to.  I don't have to beat anyone up, slap the cuffs on anyone or bulldoze any houses to speak freely.  So free speech is a legitimate right under libertarianism.

Let's look at the often claimed right not to be offended by the speech of another.  If I claim that I am offended by the use of the term "pecan pie" then in order to exercise that right, I would have to initiate force - personally or through government - to prevent anyone from uttering that phrase.  So that is not a legitimate right under libertarianism.

The two rights you claim under your version of libertarianism that other libertarians dispute are:

1)  The right of a union representative to prevent a factory owner from hiring replacement workers during a strike and

2)  The right of union members and/or their hired people to physically block existing workers who do not wish to participate in a strike from entering the workplace.

Number 1)  Requires that the union initiate force through the government.  In the absence of government force, the factory owner would decide whether to hire new workers or negotiate with the striking workers.

Number 2)  Requires the initiation of force by the union workers and/or hired employees personally in order to prevent workers from working.

So your two proposed rights cannot be reconciled with the libertarian principle of non-initiation of force.

You like to refer to large numbers of individuals as "society" so from your perspective, "society" is also harmed by a belief in rights 1) and 2).  Because by that use of initiation of force to prevent a factory from operating, not only is the employer and the worker deprived of freedom, customers and potential customers of the employer are deprived of the freedom to purchase products at prices that are not influenced by the initiation of force.  So large numbers of individuals ("society") are also deprived of a right. 








  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #3 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 5:37pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 4:00pm:
Holy Cow. Don_G starts yet another thread about himself.   

Delusional narcissist.
You think he's as bad as the lizard?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4738
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #4 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 6:34pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 5:37pm:
You think he's as bad as the lizard?

The lizard was a genius. He was honest, sincere, and he wasn't a troll.  I miss him it.   Cry 

He it might be back.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #5 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:23pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 6:34pm:
The lizard was a genius. He was honest, sincere, and he wasn't a troll.
Not the lizard I was talking about...

The lizard I met on this forum was a deceptive lying sack of shit, a self admitted delusional evil sociopath that disrupted discussion whenever it could.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5874
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:06pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 4:04pm:
The main flaw in your version of libertarianism is that you cannot state any theory or opinion about where rights come from.  You imply that they are "granted" but you have  no clear idea of who the granters of rights are and how the granters of rights were themselves granted the right to grant rights to others.


I thought we had already cleared that hurdle when I gave you my scenario on rights being invented and granted. You agreed at the time.

Quote:
For other libertarians, it is relatively easy in most cases to determine whether a claimed right is really a right that our philosophy respects and defends.  All we have to do is ask ourselves,   If so, it isn't a right under libertarianism.  If not, then it almost certainly is a right.


Very purist of you to state that but can you live up to it? We can now use that question:

Quote:
"Does this claimed right require the person exercising that right to initiate force, either personally or through government, against another human?"


We've applied that test to a worker under a collective agreement and now we can apply the test to an employer too.

Quote:
The simplest example is the right to free speech.  If I claim the right to speak freely, I can exercise it with no initiation of force against anyone.  I just literally start talking and don't stop until I choose to.  I don't have to beat anyone up, slap the cuffs on anyone or bulldoze any houses to speak freely.  So free speech is a legitimate right under libertarianism.


I can't disagree without giving it the thought it deserves. But in order to not appear contrary, I'll give you that one with a bit of precaution.

Quote:
Let's look at the often claimed right not to be offended by the speech of another.  If I claim that I am offended by the use of the term "pecan pie" then in order to exercise that right, I would have to initiate force - personally or through government - to prevent anyone from uttering that phrase.  So that is not a legitimate right under libertarianism.


I don't see how pecan pie could be hate speech but I do see other possibilities. However, my schtick would be to start from a position of granting all rights of free speech and then work downwards from there.

Quote:
The two rights you claim under your version of libertarianism that other libertarians dispute are:

1)  The right of a union representative to prevent a factory owner from hiring replacement workers during a strike and


Yes, I  grant that right to a  any employer who is not a signatory to a collective agreement. You're really a slow learner. And fwiw, I don't grant the worker the right to strike unless the same preconditions are applicable. This isn't a complicated concept for you. All you have to do is leave your politics of the right having total and exclusive rights at the curb.

Quote:
2)  The right of union members and/or their hired people to physically block existing workers who do not wish to participate in a strike from entering the workplace.


No, no, no, a thousand times NO! I don't have to explain this to you again!

Quote:
Number 1)  Requires that the union initiate force through the government.  In the absence of government force, the factory owner would decide whether to hire new workers or negotiate with the striking workers.


You can't win on this. And you're smart enough to know why. The clue is: The law is the law. If an employer or a worker becomes signatory to a collective agreement then they both must abide by the law.

Quote:
Number 2)  Requires the initiation of force by the union workers and/or hired employees personally in order to prevent workers from working.


You still don't understand!! Or perhaps you are pretending to not understand. The only force involved is the law that can enforce a collective agreement.

YOu're going to have to leave your preference for an employer's rights by the wayside in order to deal with this question. I'm leaving my leftist preference by the wayside and that allows me to address your misunderstandings.



Quote:
So your two proposed rights cannot be reconciled with the libertarian principle of non-initiation of force.


On yes it can and I will deal with any question you raise and any situation you can invent.

Quote:
You like to refer to large numbers of individuals as "society" so from your perspective, "society" is also harmed by a belief in rights 1) and 2).  Because by that use of initiation of force to prevent a factory from operating, not only is the employer and the worker deprived of freedom, customers and potential customers of the employer are deprived of the freedom to purchase products at prices that are not influenced by the initiation of force.  So large numbers of individuals ("society") are also deprived of a right. 



there is no initiation of force involved. A hint for you would be to go to arguing that an employer was forced to sign a collective agreement. But I'll demolish your argument on that too.

Get this concept burnsred. It's standing in the way of you being able to claim you are a libertarian. I don't expect any of the others to get it but I do expect it of you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #7 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:13pm
Print Post  
Don_G, I want to give that response the attention it deserves.  Before I do can you clarify one point?  Under what circumstances should an employer be forbidden to replace striking workers?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5874
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #8 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:30pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:13pm:
Don_G, I want to give that response the attention it deserves.  Before I do can you clarify one point?  Under what circumstances should an employer be forbidden to replace striking workers?



Good question! If I hadn't already given you the answer. If there is a collective agreement in force any action of that sort on either side is forbidden by law.

If there is no collective agreement in force then there is the possibility of a clause in a collective agreement which states that the worker (the union) and the employer will continue to honour the terms of employment. That is, the employer has a lot to lose if the workers don't come back after a work stoppage, be that a strike or a lockout. The benefit to the workers is obvious.

If that clause doesn't exist then both the workers and the employer have the right to take other actions. Firing all the workers is not out of the question. All workers withfrawing their services isn't either.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #9 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:50am
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:30pm:
Good question! If I hadn't already given you the answer. If there is a collective agreement in force any action of that sort on either side is forbidden by law.

If there is no collective agreement in force then there is the possibility of a clause in a collective agreement which states that the worker (the union) and the employer will continue to honour the terms of employment. That is, the employer has a lot to lose if the workers don't come back after a work stoppage, be that a strike or a lockout. The benefit to the workers is obvious.

If that clause doesn't exist then both the workers and the employer have the right to take other actions. Firing all the workers is not out of the question. All workers withfrawing their services isn't either.
As you noted in an earlier reply to me on this issue, you don't understand U.S. labor law as it is contained in the NLRA and the RLA, both of which act to grant monopoly power to private organizations, that is unions. Under these laws, the rights of employers are diminished and restricted and unionized employees and their unions are granted extraordinary privileges.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy