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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum? (Read 574 times)
burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #10 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:00am
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Don_G, I want to give that response the attention it deserves.  Before I do can you clarify one point?  Under what circumstances should an employer be forbidden to replace striking workers?



Good question! If I hadn't already given you the answer. If there is a collective agreement in force any action of that sort on either side is forbidden by law.

If there is no collective agreement in force then there is the possibility of a clause in a collective agreement which states that the worker (the union) and the employer will continue to honour the terms of employment. That is, the employer has a lot to lose if the workers don't come back after a work stoppage, be that a strike or a lockout. The benefit to the workers is obvious.

If that clause doesn't exist then both the workers and the employer have the right to take other actions. Firing all the workers is not out of the question. All workers withfrawing their services isn't either.
Then we have no disagreement on that point.  I wish you would have said that when I asked earlier but you kept saying that you had already explained it all.

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The simplest example is the right to free speech.  If I claim the right to speak freely, I can exercise it with no initiation of force against anyone.  I just literally start talking and don't stop until I choose to.  I don't have to beat anyone up, slap the cuffs on anyone or bulldoze any houses to speak freely.  So free speech is a legitimate right under libertarianism.


I can't disagree without giving it the thought it deserves. But in order to not appear contrary, I'll give you that one with a bit of precaution.

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Let's look at the often claimed right not to be offended by the speech of another.  If I claim that I am offended by the use of the term "pecan pie" then in order to exercise that right, I would have to initiate force - personally or through government - to prevent anyone from uttering that phrase.  So that is not a legitimate right under libertarianism.


I don't see how pecan pie could be hate speech but I do see other possibilities. However, my schtick would be to start from a position of granting all rights of free speech and then work downwards from there.
Work downward toward what, though?  Why not just stop at granting all rights to free speech?  We have a right to free speech, period, end of story. 


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The main flaw in your version of libertarianism is that you cannot state any theory or opinion about where rights come from.  You imply that they are "granted" but you have  no clear idea of who the granters of rights are and how the granters of rights were themselves granted the right to grant rights to others.


I thought we had already cleared that hurdle when I gave you my scenario on rights being invented and granted. You agreed at the time.
No, no, a thousand times NO!

I never agreed with your method of inventing and granting rights through a committee of diverse people.  As I explained, that is exactly how the "right" to slave ownership was granted.  So since we know that slave ownership can never be considered a real right, the invent and grant method is invalid.
 

I apologize for the delay in my explanation of where rights actually come from.  I want to make sure that it is comprehensive and convincing.

Coming soon . . . 

  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #11 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 12:13pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:00am:
Then we have no disagreement on that point.  I wish you would have said that when I asked earlier but you kept saying that you had already explained it all.


I really do think I did explain it that way. I won't make an issue of it though.

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Work downward toward what, though?  Why not just stop at granting all rights to free speech?  We have a right to free speech, period, end of story.


Work downward to forbidding free speech on the basis of it being an incitement for violence. The crowded theater scene. Hate speech that does harm to others. Always keeping in mind our starting position. 


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No, no, a thousand times NO!

I never agreed with your method of inventing and granting rights through a committee of diverse people.  As I explained, that is exactly how the "right" to slave ownership was granted.  So since we know that slave ownership can never be considered a real right, the invent and grant method is invalid.


I think I'm about to learn something from you on that subject. At the moment my only answer would be to look at some particular individual rights and then try to learn how they came about being rights. I'm not able to hit on something that would encompass all individual rights. Many could be much the same as slavery and only be perceived as rights, when in fact they aren't.

My main thrust, as you will know by now is to sort out some perceived rights that can't be rights, due to clashes with the rights of others. I see the excessive claims of some gun rights to be imposing restrictions on the rights of others for example. Quite unnecessary I would add.

Also, we can use the example of workers vs. employers. Although I still insist that a true libertarian wouldn't invent any clashes in that respect. Libertarians on this forum still do I'm afraid.
 

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I apologize for the delay in my explanation of where rights actually come from.  I want to make sure that it is comprehensive and convincing.

Coming soon . . . 



No problem. I'm expecting something that has been well thought out.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #12 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 5:25pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 12:13pm:
I think I'm about to learn something from you on that subject. At the moment my only answer would be to look at some particular individual rights and then try to learn how they came about being rights.
I'll try to get you started. The Right of self defense is inborn, bred into our genes for survival purposes since the beginning.

There you are. That's how the Right to self defense came into being.

Let's discuss that one first, then we can move on to others I have in mind.

Your claim is that the Right to self defense was granted by someone? That would have to be God then... Is that your contention?

If not, who did grant the earliest humans the Right to try to survive?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #13 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 7:14pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 3:16pm:
Am I the only one who can unequivcably  express the granting of rights to all the people...
Why won't you tell us who it is that has the power to grant us privileges and where they got such power...

Are you really such a fool as to believe that people with the power to grant privileges will grant them equally? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #14 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 7:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 5:25pm:
I'll try to get you started. The Right of self defense is inborn, bred into our genes for survival purposes since the beginning.

There you are. That's how the Right to self defense came into being.

Let's discuss that one first, then we can move on to others I have in mind.

Your claim is that the Right to self defense was granted by someone? That would have to be God then... Is that your contention?

If not, who did grant the earliest humans the Right to try to survive?

If you refuse this discussion Donat, can you retain any credibility with anyone?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #15 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 7:20pm:
If you refuse this discussion Donat, can you retain any credibility with anyone?

I didn't want to anger you and set you off again so I won't mention the easter bunny granting rights. So I guess we'll have to see if I retain credibility?


  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #16 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:28pm
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Work downward to forbidding free speech on the basis of it being an incitement for violence. The crowded theater scene. 
If I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" a crowded theater, what should I do if I am in a crowded theater and the stage catches on fire but many of the patrons think it's part of the show?

Now if I yell "fire" knowing that there is no fire, that's a fraudulent act.  No more protected by free speech than a supposed "right" to tell a bank teller that I have a bomb so he will give me the bank's money.
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Hate speech that does harm to others.
How does hate speech harm others?  Suppose I saw a guy with a t-shirt that said, "I HATE [N-WORD]s!"  I would be extremely offended.  But then what?  I'm not harmed.  No more than SkyChief is harmed if he is offended by your claiming to be a libertarian.  If he claims to be offended, that doesn't reduce your right to free speech in the slightest.

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Always keeping in mind our starting position.
When it comes to free speech our starting position is our ending position.  Speech is either free or it's not.



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My main thrust, as you will know by now is to sort out some perceived rights that can't be rights, due to clashes with the rights of others.
Real rights would by definition not clash with each other.  So if there is a clash of rights, it is always between a real and an invented right or between two invented rights.

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I see the excessive claims of some gun rights to be imposing restrictions on the rights of others for example. Quite unnecessary I would add.
I want to automatically disagree, but maybe if you could provide examples, I'd be on board.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #17 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:32pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:25pm:
I didn't want to anger you and set you off again so I won't mention the easter bunny granting rights. So I guess we'll have to see if I retain credibility?


Good luck with all your fantasies.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #18 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:33pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
If I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" a crowded theater, what should I do if I am in a crowded theater and the stage catches on fire but many of the patrons think it's part of the show?

Now if I yell "fire" knowing that there is no fire, that's a fraudulent act.

You said the stage was actually on fire...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #19 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:40pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
I want to automatically disagree, but maybe if you could provide examples, I'd be on board.


You want to agree with this statement of the Donat?

"I see the excessive claims of some gun rights to be imposing restrictions on the rights of others for example. Quite unnecessary I would add"

Would you care to try to explain why? It's not even a coherent rational statement. What do you think it means?
  
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