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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum? (Read 589 times)
Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #20 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:44pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
If I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" a crowded theater, what should I do if I am in a crowded theater and the stage catches on fire but many of the patrons think it's part of the show?


I would still yell, 'fire'.

Now if I yell "fire" knowing that there is no fire, that's a fraudulent act.  No more protected by free speech than a supposed "right" to tell a bank teller that I have a bomb so he will give me the bank's money. [/quote]

I think that yelling fire when there's a fire is a good idea. With hate speech I can imagine all sorts of harm being done to people by using hate speech against them.
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How does hate speech harm others? 


Continued later, got an emergency call. 
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #21 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:47pm
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If I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" a crowded theater, what should I do if I am in a crowded theater and the stage catches on fire but many of the patrons think it's part of the show?

Now if I yell "fire" knowing that there is no fire, that's a fraudulent act.

You said the stage was actually on fire...
Yes, I meant it to be two different scenarios, one where there is a fire and one where there is no fire.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #22 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:04pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:47pm:
Yes, I meant it to be two different scenarios, one where there is a fire and one where there is no fire.
Are you using narcotics? Is that why you were confused?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #23 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:06pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:44pm:
With hate speech I can imagine all sorts of harm being done to people by using hate speech against them.


You can? Could you give an example?

Am I harmed if you call me an ignorant cracker mothercrappity smacker?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #24 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:06pm:
You can? Could you give an example?

Am I harmed if you call me an ignorant cracker mothercrappity smacker?

That doesn't come out well in protective translation mode does it? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #25 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:20pm
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Yes, I meant it to be two different scenarios, one where there is a fire and one where there is no fire.
Are you using narcotics? Is that why you were confused?
I find JD and Coke far more effective myself.  Except for one time when I was unable to get dental work due to medical treatments.  I had a broken tooth and prescribed narcotics were a big help.

I've heard of people who claim to still be in pain and ask for additional narcotics after a surgery or whatever so they can stock up and not rely on government permission to take them if needed later.  Of course I would never do that since it would be illegal.  Nor would I stock up fish antibiotics I bought for my aquarium even though they are exactly the same as prescribed antibiotics and it would save me a government mandated trip to a doctor for an obvious URI.  Nor would I take OTC antacids in greater dosage than the label instructs in order to match the prescription strength and save money.

During the above treatment, someone offered me marijuana to relieve nausea.  I was between the first and second 1 of 911 when they quickly said they were only joking.  I still think they should be on a watch list or something . . .
 


  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #26 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:05pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
If I'm not free to yell "FIRE!" a crowded theater, what should I do if I am in a crowded theater and the stage catches on fire but many of the patrons think it's part of the show?

Now if I yell "fire" knowing that there is no fire, that's a fraudulent act.  No more protected by free speech than a supposed "right" to tell a bank teller that I have a bomb so he will give me the bank's money.
How does hate speech harm others?  Suppose I saw a guy with a t-shirt that said, "I HATE [N-WORD]s!"  I would be extremely offended.  But then what?  I'm not harmed.  No more than SkyChief is harmed if he is offended by your claiming to be a libertarian.  If he claims to be offended, that doesn't reduce your right to free speech in the slightest.


He might get away with the t-shirt but a black guy might shoot him. I like the idea you suggested of rights that clash with others rights are not rights in either case.

Not a good example IMO. How about somebody scaring the hell out of a little girl by saying he's going to rape her. Would that be free speech that should be limited because of the trauma it would produce in the little girl?

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When it comes to free speech our starting position is our ending position.  Speech is either free or it's not.


I understand  that's your position.



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Real rights would by definition not clash with each other.  So if there is a clash of rights, it is always between a real and an invented right or between two invented rights.


Interesting concept and it rings of libertarianism IMO. Especially if we use the example of somebody going out and standing on the street corner with a loaded AR-15 when the president' motorcade is about to pass by. The lack of a real right by the guy with the gun would negate the president's right to move about in safety.

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I want to automatically disagree, but maybe if you could provide examples, I'd be on board.


It's a touchy subject and I don't want to stop progress.



  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #27 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:08pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 9:20pm:
During the above treatment, someone offered me marijuana to relieve nausea.  I was between the first and second 1 of 911 when they quickly said they were only joking.  I still think they should be on a watch list or something . . .
 




Wow! You have some very strong feelings about marijuana! I've never heard that kind of emotion except from a police officer one time. Can you elaborate on your feelings?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #28 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:32pm
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He might get away with the t-shirt but a black guy might shoot him. I like the idea you suggested of rights that clash with others rights are not rights in either case.

Not a good example IMO. How about somebody scaring the hell out of a little girl by saying he's going to rape her. Would that be free speech that should be limited because of the trauma it would produce in the little girl?
No, it would be an initiation of force.  Similar to my example of saying "stick 'em up!" to a bank teller not being free speech.


Quote:
Interesting concept and it rings of libertarianism IMO. Especially if we use the example of somebody going out and standing on the street corner with a loaded AR-15 when the president' motorcade is about to pass by. The lack of a real right by the guy with the gun would negate the president's right to move about in safety.
Why only the president, though?  Under that logic, my right to safety would trump the right of anyone anywhere to bear arms at any time.  Unless you are claiming special rights for the president that no one else is entitled to. 

Since a recent law change in Texas, I pass by people open carrying all the time.  Even before that law change, we have police officers open carrying all the time.  We have overlapping jurisdictions so they are a constant presence.  A U.S. citizen is nine times more likely to bed killed by a police officer than by a terrorist.  So does the fact that police officers bear arms cause me to lose my right to safety?



  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #29 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:44am
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Don_G wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:05pm:
How about somebody scaring the hell out of a little girl by saying he's going to rape her. Would that be free speech that should be limited because of the trauma it would produce in the little girl?



Saying you intend physical harm is a threat. Your right to speak freely doesn't include making threats.
  
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