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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum? (Read 690 times)
Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #30 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:47am
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Don_G wrote on Sep 25th, 2017 at 10:05pm:
He might get away with the t-shirt but a black guy might shoot him. I like the idea you suggested of rights that clash with others rights are not rights in either case.

Not a good example IMO. How about somebody scaring the hell out of a little girl by saying he's going to rape her. Would that be free speech that should be limited because of the trauma it would produce in the little girl?


I understand  that's your position.




Interesting concept and it rings of libertarianism IMO. Especially if we use the example of somebody going out and standing on the street corner with a loaded AR-15 when the president' motorcade is about to pass by. The lack of a real right by the guy with the gun would negate the president's right to move about in safety.
Bad example Donat. The fact that someone exercises their right to bear arms does not automatically make anyone unsafe. The evidence shows that people in general are more safe when more people are carrying guns.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #31 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 5:47am:
Bad example Donat. The fact that someone exercises their right to bear arms does not automatically make anyone unsafe.


No problem agreeing with that Jeff.

Quote:
The evidence shows that people in general are more safe when more people are carrying guns.


And that's not true. The evidence shows that if a homeowner has firearms and he is burglared, he and his loved ones are much more likely to be shot or even be shot dead.

It's only a matter of making a choice for you and your family based on the odds.

Lose the couple of hundred dollars in your wallet or the other.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #32 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 4:55pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 1:18pm:
And that's not true. The evidence shows that if a homeowner has firearms and he is burglared, he and his loved ones are much more likely to be shot or even be shot dead.


I won't accept that as true without good evidence.

Even if true, it's a narrow case. Widen out your view and you'll see that places where more people are bearing arms have become safer. That holds true in general.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #33 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 8:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 4:55pm:
I won't accept that as true without good evidence.

Even if true, it's a narrow case. Widen out your view and you'll see that places where more people are bearing arms have become safer. That holds true in general.


http://archive.jsonline.com/news/opinion/are-you-safer-owning-a-gun-for-home-pro...

Narrow maybe, but true. And if you are openminded you will see that's it's not narrow at all.

Would you like to change the subject and widen it out a bit?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #34 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 8:34pm
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No one was more insistent on having his family surrounded by firearms than President Obama.  He loved guns because he never went anywhere without dozens, even hundreds of them all around him.  He must have been very insecure anytime he couldn't smell cordite and gun oil.

Not to mention that under his leadership, agencies that most people didn't even know had guns, like the Environmental Protection Agency, started buying literally tens of thousands of bullets.

 

I wonder if ever saw that study you cited . . .

  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #35 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 12:57pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 26th, 2017 at 8:34pm:
No one was more insistent on having his family surrounded by firearms than President Obama.  He loved guns because he never went anywhere without dozens, even hundreds of them all around him.  He must have been very insecure anytime he couldn't smell cordite and gun oil.

Not to mention that under his leadership, agencies that most people didn't even know had guns, like the Environmental Protection Agency, started buying literally tens of thousands of bullets.

 

I wonder if ever saw that study you cited . . .



Not something I care enough about to argue with you. I'm assuming you accept the fact that those who keep guns in their house and try to stop a burglar with them, die more often than those who don't try to use their guns.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #36 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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Not something I care enough about to argue with you.
What do  you mean?  I thought you were opposed to gun nuts like Obama having ANY influence over government, much less being president.

Quote:
I'm assuming you accept the fact that those who keep guns in their house and try to stop a burglar with them, die more often than those who don't try to use their guns.
No, that idea is way too counter-intuitive to accept without seeing the facts to back it up.  I'll look at the study you posted.  I won't blindly accept it but carefully vet it for flawed design, etc. 

You don't mind, do you?  I mean,  you won't complain that I took a skeptical look since science relies on skepticism in order to find the truth?

To be continued . . . .

EDIT:  Well that was quick.  Your article was an anecdote-based opinion piece, not a study.  The study your article cited said nothing about confrontations with burglars resulting in homeowners' deaths more or fewer times than burglars' deaths. 

In the overwhelming majority of cases of homeowners confronting burglars, the burglars simply run away, leaving the innocent family unraped, unrobbed but likely a little unnerved by the experience.



  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #37 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:57pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 6:46pm:
No, that idea is way too counter-intuitive to accept without seeing the facts to back it up.  I'll look at the study you posted.  I won't blindly accept it but carefully vet it for flawed design, etc. 

You don't mind, do you?  I mean,  you won't complain that I took a skeptical look since science relies on skepticism in order to find the truth?

To be continued . . . .




Don't mind at all. I would find it to be quite intuitive to accept it. Without guns people don't get shot. And the burglar likely has no reason to up the ante to murder when all he wants is to rob you.

The homeowner may win the gunfight sometimes but likely not very often. First of all, he's likely not as experienced as the burglar in using  a gun for force against someone. Second, the burglar has already won the quick draw contest. Or in other words, is already pointing his gun at the homeowner while the homeowner is fumbling under his bed or under his pillow, half asleep.

My scenarios don't need to be accepted exclusively but they do bear some weight to consider.
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #38 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:09pm
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The homeowner may win the gunfight sometimes but likely not very often. First of all, he's likely not as experienced as the burglar in using  a gun for force against someone. Second, the burglar has already won the quick draw contest. Or in other words, is already pointing his gun at the homeowner while the homeowner is fumbling under his bed or under his pillow, half asleep.
In the overwhelming majority of burglars, the burglar doesn't even have a gun so that theory goes out the window.

As I said above, your article cites a study that actually says nothing about homeowner-burglar confrontations.  It talks about suicides and accidental shooting which I guess we could debate.

However, such arguments would be moot between a couple of libertarians such as we.  We would never - staunch libertarians that we are - want to limit a homeowner's choices in how to defend his home.  Guns, knives, swords, alarms, dogs, or faith in our fellow man, each of us chooses his own way of self-defense in a libertarian system that we both want to bring about.

Arguing about whether guns or faith is better for home defense would be like arguing because I like Dodges and you like Fords (or that Canadian brand of cars).  We have our opinion, but neither would ever want to initiate force against the other or anyone else to influence a decision like that. 

Right?
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #39 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:42pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 7:09pm:
In the overwhelming majority of burglars, the burglar doesn't even have a gun so that theory goes out the window.

As I said above, your article cites a study that actually says nothing about homeowner-burglar confrontations.  It talks about suicides and accidental shooting which I guess we could debate.

However, such arguments would be moot between a couple of libertarians such as we.  We would never - staunch libertarians that we are - want to limit a homeowner's choices in how to defend his home.  Guns, knives, swords, alarms, dogs, or faith in our fellow man, each of us chooses his own way of self-defense in a libertarian system that we both want to bring about.

Arguing about whether guns or faith is better for home defense would be like arguing because I like Dodges and you like Fords (or that Canadian brand of cars).  We have our opinion, but neither would ever want to initiate force against the other or anyone else to influence a decision like that. 

Right?

O.k. then, different discussion if you want to rule out burglars having guns for the sake of this conversation. I don't think that was a prerequisite to begin with but I'm easy..

As for allowing homeowners to have all the guns they want, that's fine for your country. In my country I would advocate limits on guns that can be packed around on the street, in your glove box, into bars where alcohol is being served, and several others. And I would keep our stringent controls in place that limit handguns to the range, used, and then straight back home again. some exceptions allowed.

That's my liberty to live in safety and the liberty of my children or grandchildren to go to school without fear.
  
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