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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum? (Read 696 times)
burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #40 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:21pm
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O.k. then, different discussion if you want to rule out burglars having guns for the sake of this conversation. I don't think that was a prerequisite to begin with but I'm easy..
When you talked about the quick-draw contests that you envisioned burglars constantly winning against homeowners, I assumed you envisioned the burglar had a gun?

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As for allowing homeowners to have all the guns they want, that's fine for your country. In my country I would advocate limits on guns that can be packed around on the street, in your glove box, into bars where alcohol is being served, and several others. And I would keep our stringent controls in place that limit handguns to the range, used, and then straight back home again. some exceptions allowed.
So you're a libertarian, just not on the issue of guns, then.  Many libertarians have one particular freedom that they are uncomfortable with.  For me it is the freedom of a business owner to discriminate. 
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That's my liberty to live in safety and the liberty of my children or grandchildren to go to school without fear.
You have the liberty to trade freedom for safety.  I would be even more afraid if I made that choice because I would fear that it would be my last.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #41 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:31pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
When you talked about the quick-draw contests that you envisioned burglars constantly winning against homeowners, I assumed you envisioned the burglar had a gun?

So you're a libertarian, just not on the issue of guns, then.  Many libertarians have one particular freedom that they are uncomfortable with.  For me it is the freedom of a business owner to discriminate. 
You have the liberty to trade freedom for safety.  I would be even more afraid if I made that choice because I would fear that it would be my last.



Oh no burnsred! I'm a libertarian especially on the issue of guns. I've said time after time that guns have to be controlled in the interest of protecting the rights of others.

This was one of my examples of clashing rights which you read a day or two ago.

Gungoons claim excessive rights that aren't necessary in the least. That's their rights that I would curtail in the interest of other people's rights. 

It's a whole different conversation if you want to start it?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #42 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:47pm
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Oh no burnsred! I'm a libertarian especially on the issue of guns. I've said time after time that guns have to be controlled in the interest of protecting the rights of others.

This was one of my examples of clashing rights which you read a day or two ago.
Meaning the right to stop others from having guns outweighs the right to have guns?  That's not libertarian thinking in the slightest.

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Gungoons claim excessive rights that aren't necessary in the least. That's their rights that I would curtail in the interest of other people's rights.

It's a whole different conversation if you want to start it?
The position you take on gun control is completely liberal and not libertarian at all.  Yes, I would love to have
that conversation with you.  But only on this forum:

http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1

in which liberals debate conservatives, not on our current forum which is for exchange of libertarian ideas.  Since I respect private property, I won't trespass on the board by debating non-libertarian ideas. 
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #43 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 11:03pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:47pm:
Meaning the right to stop others from having guns outweighs the right to have guns?  That's not libertarian thinking in the slightest.


We've covered this several times before burnsred. My thinking is real libertarian thinking because I acknowledge the rights of others who are negatively affected by guns. It's the same with the union and workers rights arguments that you are coming to accept now.

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The position you take on gun control is completely liberal and not libertarian at all.  Yes, I would love to have
that conversation with you.  But only on this forum:

http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1


You get it here or not at all. Or you can just agree to disagree with me. I may bring it up at any time.

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in which liberals debate conservatives, not on our current forum which is for exchange of libertarian ideas.  Since I respect private property, I won't trespass on the board by debating non-libertarian ideas. 


I reserve the right to set the same preconditions on you! If you can't support rights for all then we really have a problem of not  being able to continue. please don't force me to cut you off.

They're almost certainly not real libertarians so they don't own the property. Frankly, I've found it very difficult to find a real one. If you're now reneging on the debate over workers' rights then I'm afraid I can't call you a real one yet. We'll have to establish that. Same goes for denying the majority the right to live in safety from gungoonery.

I'm looking at drawing up a proposal that would afford gun rights and freedom from gungoonery at the same time. I think it's only going to take a little bit of moderation from the gungoons to accept. And I understand the NRA members are pretty well already sold on the idea of a more sensible position on guns. It's mostly the NRA leadership that's batshit crazy over gun rights. We'll see!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-gun-owners-support-background-checks-a...

What's up with that?
  
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burnsred
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #44 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:57am
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burnsred wrote yesterday at 8:47pm:
Meaning the right to stop others from having guns outweighs the right to have guns?  That's not libertarian thinking in the slightest.


We've covered this several times before burnsred. My thinking is real libertarian thinking because I acknowledge the rights of others who are negatively affected by guns. It's the same with the union and workers rights arguments that you are coming to accept now.
Not in the slightest.  I did not realize initially that you fully supported the right of an owner to hire replacement workers in the absence of a contract in which the owner agreed not to.  I thought you meant that you supported current laws forbidding owners from hiring replacements no matter how the contract reads.

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Quote:
The position you take on gun control is completely liberal and not libertarian at all.  Yes, I would love to have
that conversation with you.  But only on this forum:

http://area51.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1


You get it here or not at all. Or you can just agree to disagree with me. I may bring it up at any time.
Bring it up all you like, but I can't argue against the liberal position on gun control without feeling that I'm violating the forum owner's property rights. 

But I can speak hypothetically, I guess.  Let's say a person is terrified of dogs.  Doesn't make sense, but it's a common phobia.  She doesn't "feel safe" when she sees a dog.  She doesn't feel safe knowing that there might be a dog in the house next door.  The whole idea that the government allows people to own as many dogs as they want is an anathema to her.  She demands the "right to feel safe" from dogs.  The worst trigger (no pun intended) for her is to see a person walking with a dog, not matter how well-leashed.  She is very opposed to "open walking" laws when it comes to dogs.

Does that lead to a debate about balancing two very real rights?  Or do we libertarians say, there is no right not to be offended or afraid of someone else exercising a right? 

BTW, this person has kids and she claims that her right to keep them safe and their right to be safe trumps any supposed "right to bear pets." 

My opinion is that the dog-fearing lady is trying to use her fear as an excuse to take away a real right from dog lovers.   There is not and can never be a right to limit one person's freedom for the sake of another person's feelings.

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in which liberals debate conservatives, not on our current forum which is for exchange of libertarian ideas.  Since I respect private property, I won't trespass on the board by debating non-libertarian ideas.


I reserve the right to set the same preconditions on you! If you can't support rights for all then we really have a problem of not  being able to continue. please don't force me to cut you off.
I would never force you to do ANYTHING, Don.  I'm a libertarian!

I will recommend that you cut me off, though.  Our conversation seems to be frustrating you, to put it mildly.  If it has taken an unhealthy turn for you, please act in your own self-interests.

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They're almost certainly not real libertarians so they don't own the property. Frankly, I've found it very difficult to find a real one. If you're now reneging on the debate over workers' rights then I'm afraid I can't call you a real one yet. We'll have to establish that. Same goes for denying the majority the right to live in safety from gungoonery.
How am I reneging?  I hate to be accused of that.  For eight years we had a reneger in the White House and now it seems that his replacement is reneging also.  Last thing we need is more damned renegers!

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I'm looking at drawing up a proposal that would afford gun rights and freedom from gungoonery at the same time. I think it's only going to take a little bit of moderation from the gungoons to accept. And I understand the NRA members are pretty well already sold on the idea of a more sensible position on guns. It's mostly the NRA leadership that's batshit crazy over gun rights. We'll see!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/most-gun-owners-support-background-checks-a....

What's up with that?
It is never hard to find people willing and even eager to trade freedom for safety.  Problem is not so much that they deserve neither as Ben Franklyn said, but that they almost always wind up with neither. 

Again, I can't comment on the gun issue if you're taking the straight liberal line.  But since you are libertarian on everything else, let me ask whether requiring background checks before purchasing security dogs or other service animals makes it less likely that the animal will someday bite an innocent person.

  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #45 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:20pm
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burnsred wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 10:57am:
Not in the slightest.  I did not realize initially that you fully supported the right of an owner to hire replacement workers in the absence of a contract in which the owner agreed not to.  I thought you meant that you supported current laws forbidding owners from hiring replacements no matter how the contract reads.


I would support all laws that give worker's rights concerning their employment. All real libertarians should. It can't be a onesided situation where the employer claims all the rights. You seem to  be talking about laws that exist outside of a contract now and that's a twist we hadn't discussed. You could elaborate but I'm pretty sure I would support workers' rights over a single employer's claimed rights.

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Bring it up all you like, but I can't argue against the liberal position on gun control without feeling that I'm violating the forum owner's property rights.


I guess I'll learn what that could be? I can't imagine any anti-gun rights argument I've ever mentioned being contrary to libertarianism. Mine have always been pro-rights and pro-libertarianism. Are you beginning to disagree with my sincerity? 

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But I can speak hypothetically, I guess.  Let's say a person is terrified of dogs.  Doesn't make sense, but it's a common phobia.  She doesn't "feel safe" when she sees a dog.  She doesn't feel safe knowing that there might be a dog in the house next door.  The whole idea that the government allows people to own as many dogs as they want is an anathema to her.  She demands the "right to feel safe" from dogs.  The worst trigger (no pun intended) for her is to see a person walking with a dog, not matter how well-leashed.  She is very opposed to "open walking" laws when it comes to dogs.


Such a person could exist but it would be ver likely that her fears would be rational because she had been badly bitten or had her child's face torn off by one of the breeds that do such things. (not blaming the dogs) (blaming the kind of people who own such dogs for bad reasons) Fears are generally not irrational in my opinion; they're founded on bad experiences.

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Does that lead to a debate about balancing two very real rights?  Or do we libertarians say, there is no right not to be offended or afraid of someone else exercising a right? 


It could bring up a very rational law that's been enacted in some cities that demand pitbulls be muzzled. The alternative seems to be far too many children having their faces ripped off. I support those laws because I'm a libertarian.

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BTW, this person has kids and she claims that her right to keep them safe and their right to be safe trumps any supposed "right to bear pets." 


It's a very simple question to answer, based on the information you have provided in this real/imagined case. No, she doesn't have that right. That's irrational to suggest she does! Ask me about what right would be rational. This is a good example  you've brought up because it meshes perfectly with the gun rights question! but your answer is to suggest that all pets be outlawed. Would you be suggesting the answer to guns would be to outlaw all guns too?  Roll Eyes

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My opinion is that the dog-fearing lady is trying to use her fear as an excuse to take away a real right from dog lovers.   There is not and can never be a right to limit one person's freedom for the sake of another person's feelings.


She's off the wall of course and not an example of someone who's fears could be considered when laws are enacted to protect people from mad dogs. But excluding her case, a person's feeling are sometimes legitimate and not just one person's feeling and for that reason sometimes must be considered. Sometimes non-gun owners' feelings are ignored in order to respect gun owners' feelings.

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I would never force you to do ANYTHING, Don.  I'm a libertarian!


Thank you. I'm a libertarian who may have to support curtailing some of your rights and privileges in order to honour and hold up the rights and privileges of the majority. But only if the two clash and can't possibly be honoured and respected together. Sometimes your rights will sin out and sometimes they won't.

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I will recommend that you cut me off, though.  Our conversation seems to be frustrating you, to put it mildly.  If it has taken an unhealthy turn for you, please act in your own self-interests.


No, I'm fine. Yesterday I was getting bogged down with the volume because I thought that I should be answering all your questions and comments out of respect. Today I have less on my plate and I'll continue.
con't.
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #46 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 12:28pm
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con't.


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How am I reneging?  I hate to be accused of that.  For eight years we had a reneger in the White House and now it seems that his replacement is reneging also.  Last thing we need is more damned renegers!


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It is never hard to find people willing and even eager to trade freedom for safety.  Problem is not so much that they deserve neither as Ben Franklyn said, but that they almost always wind up with neither. 


You would have to provide examples. I'm wary of accepting hypothetical cases of your founding fathers.

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Again, I can't comment on the gun issue if you're taking the straight liberal line.  But since you are libertarian on everything else, let me ask whether requiring background checks before purchasing security dogs or other service animals makes it less likely that the animal will someday bite an innocent person.



Come on burnsred, a security check won't have any effect on the dog. Biting or licking or otherwise. but security checks for people who want to purchase guns might be a wise thing to do, and it wouldn't unnecessarily infringe on anybody's rights. In fact, it may even furnish rights to the majority. A libertarian could imagine that as a good trade-off.

I can't agree to any preconditions on the discussion of guns. I have no desire to apply any preconditions on what you have to say, save keeping it civil.

  
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SkyChief
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #47 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 3:09pm
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It occurred to me that to ask the question:

"Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?"

one would need to be at least 1 of the following:

a) delusional

b) clueless about what the term libertarian actually means

c) narcissistic

d) troll

e) some combination of the above
  
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Don_G
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #48 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:28pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 3:09pm:
It occurred to me that to ask the question:

"Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?"

one would need to be at least 1 of the following:

a. Understand that some rights being claimed by pseudo-libertarians like skychief can't be granted because they interfere with the greater good.

b. Understand that libertarianism can't exist in a vacuum.

c. Understand that libertarianism can't exist in a country. (non-vacuum.

d. Understand that the US is the only country where libertarian rights and privileges aren't taken for granted by the population



I'm all of the above and you're none of the above. burnsred has progressed to accept at least some of them!
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Am I The Only True Libertarian on This Forum?
Reply #49 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:32pm
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Don_G wrote on Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:28pm:
I'm all of the above and you're none of the above. burnsred has progressed to accept at least some of them!

You deliberately misquoted me.  Shame on you.  But you feel no shame.  You plagiarize people and you are a liar.

You may have fooled some people on this forum, but you don't fool me, Don_G. 
  
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