Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G (Read 562 times)
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Sep 24th, 2017 at 6:39pm
Print Post  
Don_G is a pretty frustrating fella to talk to sometimes.  But why?  Don's political beliefs consist primarily of a hatred for U.S. (and only U.S.) interventionism abroad, disdain for the U.S. in general and a belief that the government should intervene in employer-employee negotiations in way that always benefit the employees and put the employers in a position in which they must give in to all union demands or shut down.

In the United States that would be called "liberalism" and not "libertarianism."  In Canada, that may be more middle of the road, I don't know.

But in my experience, he doesn't explain that up front.  He speaks as if you are already fully aware of his beliefs and that you are either too stupid to understand them or you are evil in some way if you disagree with those beliefs.

Time and time again when I was "flirting" with libertarianism, I heard libertarians do the exact same thing.  Libertarianism doesn't fit with the liberal/conservative spectrum that most politically aware Americans understand.  So when we speak to a statist on either end, we have to remember that they don't understand what freedom is and they don't know that they don't understand what freedom is.  They think freedom is getting the government to allow them to do more things like smoke pot or buy a silencer.  They  think a tax cut is a sign of freedom or that a bigger welfare check makes them more independent.

Again, I go back to explain, explain, explain.  Libertarianism is a hard enough sell when people enjoy their gilded cages so much.  We need to explain our ideas without being grumpy because we have to start with the basics.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4735
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #1 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:19pm
Print Post  
Specifically, what have you learned from Don_G?  What has he "taught" you?  Ask him to teach you about the government's rights.

Has he taught you about socially responsible capitalism?   I found an article in The New Yorker that talks about socially responsible capitalism. But it's a very different concept than Don_G's.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/is-socially-responsible-capitalism...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #2 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:26pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 6:39pm:
Don_G is a pretty frustrating fella to talk to sometimes.  But why?  Don's political beliefs consist primarily of a hatred for U.S. (and only U.S.) interventionism abroad, disdain for the U.S. in general and a belief that the government should intervene in employer-employee negotiations in way that always benefit the employees and put the employers in a position in which they must give in to all union demands or shut down.

In the United States that would be called "liberalism"...
Only if you accept that "liberalism" means tyranny. I don't. I'm a liberal minded person, not a barbarian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #3 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:31pm
Print Post  
[quote author=7661667A67667170140 link=1506292771/0#0 date=1506292771
Time and time again when I was "flirting" with libertarianism....

Again, I go back to explain, explain, explain.  Libertarianism is a hard enough sell when people enjoy their gilded cages so much.
[/quote]The Right to live your life the way you see fit seems an easy sell to me... at least if you are trying to sell it to adults.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
burnsred
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 1055
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #4 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:34pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Specifically, what have you learned from Don_G?  What has he "taught" you?  Ask him to teach you about the government's rights.

Has he taught you about socially responsible capitalism?  I found an article in The New Yorker that talks about socially responsible capitalism. But it's a very different concept than Don_G's.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/is-socially-responsible-capitalism....
He has taught me how unconvincing I would sound if I espoused my libertarian beliefs with the same haranguing, didactic and condescending tone that many of my fellow libertarians use when speaking with or about non-libertarians.

And now, so have you, SkyChief . . .

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #5 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:36pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:19pm:
I found an article in The New Yorker that talks about socially responsible capitalism. But it's a very different concept than Don_G's.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/06/05/is-socially-responsible-capitalism...
'Society' will make the judgement of your offerings by either buying them or not...

Businesses that are responsible to the needs of some adequate part of the market will succeed and be profitable. Those that are not will disappear...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:38pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:34pm:
He has taught me how unconvincing I would sound if I espoused my libertarian beliefs with the same haranguing, didactic and condescending tone that many of my fellow libertarians use when speaking with or about non-libertarians.
Donat is a halfwit ignoramus, on that we mostly agree, although I insist that halfwits are way smarter that the Donat.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Don_G
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 5869
Location: British Columbia
Joined: May 8th, 2017
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #7 - Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:25pm
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 6:39pm:
Don_G is a pretty frustrating fella to talk to sometimes.  But why?  Don's political beliefs consist primarily of a hatred for U.S. (and only U.S.) interventionism abroad, disdain for the U.S. in general and a belief that the government should intervene in employer-employee negotiations in way that always benefit the employees and put the employers in a position in which they must give in to all union demands or shut down.


Correction. I hate US foreign policy.Why not do your homework and work up a scenario that you can present to me on employer/employee relationships? See if you can trap me doing what you say I do. I'll bet you can't!

When it comes to that topic, you're stalled in the 6th. grade. The legality of the collective agreement and how it works is not something you have the ability to question. You haven't even twigged to the way an expert would try to do that yet. You're nothing but jaded toward exclusive employers' rights, at the exclusion of workers' rights. Now it's time to put your thinking cap on and try to move on.

Quote:
In the United States that would be called "liberalism" and not "libertarianism."  In Canada, that may be more middle of the road, I don't know.


You've never mentioned any distinct difference and you won't. You don't know enough about the topic to do that.

Quote:
But in my experience, he doesn't explain that up front.  He speaks as if you are already fully aware of his beliefs and that you are either too stupid to understand them or you are evil in some way if you disagree with those beliefs.


There's a possibility that I've taken you to be more intelligent than you really are. That's not an insult, it's a reply to your words.

Quote:
Time and time again when I was "flirting" with libertarianism, I heard libertarians do the exact same thing.  Libertarianism doesn't fit with the liberal/conservative spectrum that most politically aware Americans understand.  So when we speak to a statist on either end, we have to remember that they don't understand what freedom is and they don't know that they don't understand what freedom is.  They think freedom is getting the government to allow them to do more things like smoke pot or buy a silencer.  They  think a tax cut is a sign of freedom or that a bigger welfare check makes them more independent.


That's just you hinting that I'm stuck on the basics. The truth is that I've beat the shit out of SkyChief on the basics and now want to move to the more difficult shit with you.

Quote:
Again, I go back to explain, explain, explain.  Libertarianism is a hard enough sell when people enjoy their gilded cages so much.  We need to explain our ideas without being grumpy because we have to start with the basics.



It might get compllicated but if it does I'll be capable of understanding you. You have no surprises to offer at this stage of the game.

Right now we're dealing with the most basic of libertarian concepts. That is, the granting of individual rights to all the people and then working backward from there. We're only talking about how some rights must be denied to some people because they clash with the rights of others.

You're better than that burnsred. I'm not at all convinced that any of the others actually are.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 23218
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #8 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 8:44am
Print Post  
Don_G wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 10:25pm:
Right now we're dealing with the most basic of libertarian concepts. That is, the granting of individual rights to all the people and then working backward from there. We're only talking about how some rights must be denied to some people because they clash with the rights of others.
The basic classic liberal/libertarian concept is that Rights are inherent and possessed equally by all humans.

If you could give an example of 'clashing' rights, I'd be glad to try help you understand where (besides thinking that Rights are "granted") you are going wrong in your thinking.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4735
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Reply #9 - Sep 25th, 2017 at 11:50am
Print Post  
burnsred wrote on Sep 24th, 2017 at 7:34pm:
He has taught me how unconvincing I would sound if I espoused my libertarian beliefs with the same haranguing, didactic and condescending tone that many of my fellow libertarians use when speaking with or about non-libertarians.

And now, so have you, SkyChief . . .

I see in some other threads that you are learning some new things from Don_G.   It takes a while for most people to fully comprehend his regressive, statist ideas.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › What Libertarians can Learn from Don_G
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy